boar_d_laze wrote:..for a machine expected to sell in the tens of thousands

This is not true. LM produces just over 2000 machines annually of which over 90% are of the full commercial models.

boar_d_laze wrote:...the GS3 is widely unavailable, has some reliability issues...

The availability in Europe is getting a lot better. Afaik, the delays in the US are caused by the recently changed regulations, not LM. What are the reliability issues?

Br,
Teme

Teme wrote:Afaik, the delays in the US are caused by the recently changed regulations, not LM.

Recently someone with whom I was in conversation pointed out that ESI is now owned by Franke and was wondering what motivation Franke can possibly have to import, market, and sell the GS/3 direct to consumers and then provide support to those same purchasers. Without having any factual information, I must say the (non)availability in the U.S. is perhaps not so simple as some might suggest.

Richard wrote:Recently someone with whom I was in conversation pointed out that ESI is now owned by Franke and was wondering what motivation Franke can possibly have to import, market, and sell the GS/3 direct to consumers and then provide support to those same purchasers. Without having any factual information, I must say the (non)availability in the U.S. is perhaps not so simple as some might suggest.

They don't have to sell it directly to customers themselves if they don't want to. But what would be the point of building a machine and then not selling it?

Br,
Teme

Richard wrote:Without having any factual information, I must say the (non)availability in the U.S. is perhaps not so simple as some might suggest.

When one has no factual information, it is usually a good time not to say anything. Franke has owned ESI for a couple of years. The machine was brought to market-ready design stage primarily by Bill Crossland, an American, under the Franke regime. Kent Bakke came all the way from Seattle to Long Beach last summer just to demonstrate the machine for consumers at the SCAA Homecoming, and, of course, Bill and Kent were on hand in Long Beach for the May 2007 Conference to answer questions from one and all (we asked a lot).

LM has jumped through the hoops for NSF certification in the U.S. (no simple feat), which was granted a few months ago. UL is all that remains. Franke/ESI/LM is happily selling the GS3 to consumers throughout the rest of the world.

I am as unhappy about the delays as anyone, but, this kind of speculation is really out of hand.

I guess I confused LM's sales expectations with something else., believing they expected to sell more than 1,500 units worldwide, annually. Clearly erroneous. Nevertheless, my mistake does alter the fact that kludgey "fixes" reveal the GS3 to be a work in progress.

Roxemary's machine was rendered unreliable by the poor fit of the tray. I'm sure I've read of several other instances where GS3s did not function up to expectation for one reason or another, but cannot point to any examples. On the other hand, GS3 inspires great loyalty at least among some owners.

That LM is starting to expand sales in Europe does not necessarily mean much for North America in general or the U.S. specifically. I've dealt with UL. I find LM's story as told here thin -- unless they are considering other changes and have not submitted a unit for testing they are willing to warranty as a final design. That would makes sense at least. Furthermore, the U.S. is a unique market when it comes products liability and warranty of merchantability. LM may be listening to their attorneys regarding vulnerability to suit if they sell an unfinished design. That also makes sense.

The GS3 is, at least at this point, sui generis. I doubt Franke is really worried about competition since they have nothing similar under any name.

Rich

PS My part in this thread is close enough to quibbling that I'm done. I don't mean to attack LM or the GS3 with my suggestion that its unavailability and teething problems are good reasons to consider other machines.

Marshall wrote:When one has no factual information, it is usually a good time not to say anything.

I am as unhappy about the delays as anyone, but, this kind of speculation is really out of hand.

Speculation will always be nurtured by the lack of facts. If there were facts to had, there would be no soil for speculation such as this to take root.
Speculation has gotten out of hand because no one is supplying the facts in any useful way. For good or for ill, it's human nature.

boar_d_laze wrote:Do you know how Lamborghini got into the car business? Lamborghini got rich making tractors, and as a rich, married playboy with several mistresses, bought a Ferrari. But he couldn't get it to run right, and got the runaround from the Ferrari underlings. He ambushed old man Ferrari at a party and complained. Ferrari told him, "Looks fine to me."

Enzo said a bit more than that. To be clear, Enzo was in the business of racing cars, and produced the street cars to support that end, and Ferrucio was a farm implement (and air conditioning) manufacturer, and Enzo wasn't about to get schooled by him (publicly, mind you) at his own party. While Ferrucio may have had some points, this was neither the time nor the place to bring them up, and Enzo had some of the best automotive engineers in the business building cars for him. Ferraris are built to race, and race cars are finicky, by their very nature. If you want a tractor, by all means, get a tractor, but if you want a race car, by all means drive it and maintain it like a race car. Some people were not meant to drive race cars. Somewhat of a paraphrase of what Enzo told Ferro at the party.
I think that it's telling that Lambo has never (ever) in it's history, supported any racing, and have never supported their cars in any racing.
There never was anything wrong with the Ferraris, and there is no parallel regarding 'Italian engineering' here. Ferraris are finicky, finely tune race cars. La Marzocco is making an espresso machine.

Psyd wrote:Speculation will always be nurtured by the lack of facts. If there were facts to had, there would be no soil for speculation such as this to take root.

I think speculation is mostly caused when the effect is out of proportion with the cause. Nobody wants to hear that certification trivialities are delaying their enjoyment by a year and a half. Such a deprivation demands a more stately cause, which speculation supplies.

another_jim wrote:I think speculation is mostly caused when the effect is out of proportion with the cause. Nobody wants to hear that certification trivialities are delaying their enjoyment by a year and a half. Such a deprivation demands a more stately cause, which speculation supplies.

This may be true, but if the word were out that LM had submitted in March, and the reply in June as that they had to have a UL stamp on the heating element before they could get their boiler done, and the paperwork had gone to the man. of the HE, and they had said that it would be end of July before they could get it ready, and that they'd be on vacay til Sept, and that this process would take til the end of November, and that the UL folks would be out of the office for December and the first week of June, and that once LM got the stamp from the HE man. that they could re-submit and that would probably happen in February, and they'd get it back and probably start shipping units in the US by April of next year, (wheew!) the answer to the question, "Why isn't LM shipping the GS3 in the US?" would be, "Paperwork". And folk's'd deal with that.
Nature abhors a vacuum, but gossips love 'em.
The more stately speculation thrives simply because the details of the certification trivialities are vague, therefore mysterious. If there were some office clerk at LM, or someone that was in contact with that clerk, supplying the trivialities of the process, every outlandish speculation could be quickly and quietly quashed with a link to that thread.

Me, being overly optimistic a year ago (with photo): http://www.home-barista.com/reviews/prototype-la-marzocco-gs3-pros-perspective-t759-240.html#17457

Marshall wrote:Me, being overly optimistic a year ago (with photo):

Shoulda grabbed it and ran while you were that close! ; >