Makanmata wrote:I would probably buy an Elektra, but my understanding is that it does not come as a pour over. Is there anything available that I am overlooking, or anything that might soon become available (Synesso maybe)?

La Marzocco GS3, Elektra A3, and Synesso Cyncra. That's a hard trio to beat. Have you considered bottled water and a Flojet?

Makanmata wrote:I have been on the waiting list for a GS3 for roughly two years now. I had initially been told to expect the machine fall 2006, then late 2006, then early 2007, then July 2007, and have now been told that machines are not expected in the US until early 2008. I was told that the holdup is now due to problems with UL listing, but I am wondering if there is more going on here. It shouldn't take a year to get a UL listing, and even if that was the only issue it makes me wonder why they have encountered such difficulty with UL that they have not been able to solve.

In any case, I have a ECM Giotto that needs to be replaced in the very near future. I have nursed that machine along in the hopes of replacing it with the GS3, but I can only wait so much longer, and my enthusiasm for waiting has been diminished by seeing threads like this. My problem is that I really want a great machine, and I am having trouble finding one in this general class that does not have to be plumbed in, which is simply not an option in my kitchen. I would probably buy an Elektra, but my understanding is that it does not come as a pour over. Is there anything available that I am overlooking, or anything that might soon become available (Synesso maybe)? I would have hoped that the extreme enthusiasm for the GS3 would have pushed other manufacturers to develop a machine to compete in this market segment, and Marzocco's inability to deliver the machine would seem to offer an excellent opportunity to do so. Any thoughts on where I might look for other options? Thanks.

I would not necessarily let this discourage you from getting one. Hopefully these first generation bugs will be worked out by the time it hits the US shores. I will not argue that a LM does not make a good cup, it does. The question to ask yourself is does it make a $4500+ cup.

The GS3 offers rock solid temperature stability, easy to change temperature, plumb in or pour over and you get the prestige that goes along with owning a LaMarzocco. As to the Elektra and Synesso, a 5 gallon water jug and flojet will resolve the water supply problem, but they also need drained out. Another bucket for the drain line works well, or put them beside the kitchen sink and just hang the drain line over the edge.

Makanmata wrote:I have been on the waiting list for a GS3 for roughly two years now. I had initially been told to expect the machine fall 2006, then late 2006, then early 2007, then July 2007, and have now been told that machines are not expected in the US until early 2008. I was told that the holdup is now due to problems with UL listing, but I am wondering if there is more going on here. It shouldn't take a year to get a UL listing, and even if that was the only issue it makes me wonder why they have encountered such difficulty with UL that they have not been able to solve.

UL changed its rules this year so that the manufacturer of the heating elements for the boilers must get their own UL certification, before LM can get theirs. The ESI folks at Charlotte were pretty exasperated by the whole experience.

Marshall wrote:UL changed its rules this year so that the manufacturer of the heating elements for the boilers must get their own UL certification, before LM can get theirs. The ESI folks at Charlotte were pretty exasperated by the whole experience.

I got that explanation too, but I can't say that it is a very convincing to me. Assuming that the UL Listing Rules have changed -- and I can't find any source suggesting that they have, or are materially different than the CSA listing that the machine has secured -- I have to imagine that this is not a part that is entirely unique to the GS3, and don't see why this should be an impediment, and certainly not one that couldn't have been dealt with in a year's time. I suspect that for whatever reason, LM is in no rush to release this to the US market. Its speculation of course, but I'm wondering if LM has concluded that the machine is not ready for prime time as currently designed.

My problem is more a practical one though, in that I have a machine that is literally on its last legs, and requires too much TLC to make acceptable coffee. Before long, I won't be able to get anything decent out of it, and with no GS3 even on the horizon at this point, I can't wait any longer to replace this machine, and need to look at different options. Drinking my coffee out while I wait for the GS3 is just not an option.

I appreciate the suggestions of the Elektra and the Synesso, but I'm afraid that they aren't good options for me. The flo-jet/jug solution is one that my wife won't find acceptable from an aesthetic standpoint. While I think that I could make the Elektra work if they had a pour-over option, neither machine is really designed for home use the way that the GS3 is, and both require beefed up electricals, lots more space, and I suspect throw off a lot more ambient heat. The Synesso is a particularly attractive machine, but it just doesn't seem at all practical for a standard kitchen (unless you have a very easy going spouse). It would be great if Synesso would follow LM's lead and tweak the design to shrink its footprint and make it friendlier for household electrics. Lots of us waiting for the GS3 would surely jump ship to that machine -- if it existed. Elektra is really already more than halfway there, but it doesn't seem that they have any plans to tweak the A3 to bring it the rest of the way. The GS3 might still be my best choice, but I don't know how I am going to wait another 6 months (at a minimum) for the machine.

Makanmata wrote:I got that explanation too, but I can't say that it is a very convincing to me. Assuming that the UL Listing Rules have changed -- and I can't find any source suggesting that they have, or are materially different than the CSA listing that the machine has secured -- I have to imagine that this is not a part that is entirely unique to the GS3, and don't see why this should be an impediment, and certainly not one that couldn't have been dealt with in a year's time. I suspect that for whatever reason, LM is in no rush to release this to the US market. Its speculation of course, but I'm wondering if LM has concluded that the machine is not ready for prime time as currently designed.

Your personal disappointment is no reason to weave conspiracy theories out of thin air. No one is more upset about this than the ESI people. And, just to put my own disappointment in perspective, we had an entire coffee bar built out in our home with the GS3 template guiding the carpenter!

Rosemary wrote:I am increasingly concerned what other faults may not have been resolved as yet. I am incredibly disillusioned with La Marzocco's response that there is nothing wrong with the product, and at the end of the day I feel ripped off.

Hi Rosemary

It would seem to me that the greatest disappointment is not so much the machine itself but the response by La Marzocco. We all would have expected better. IMHO any machine can will only be as good as the support behind it. It would appear La Marzocco have some damage control to undertake.
Clearly you have gone for the top of the line. Did you consider the Vivaldi II? Suggestions have been made that it would make a good competitor at half the price. I am considering it (can't afford the GS3) but have been unable to find out what sort of support is available down under. I am from New Zealand but if there was a reliable distributor in Aussi that would work. Just wondered if you had checked this out as an option.

Hang in there.

Chris

Hi Chris

Welcome to Home Barista. We lived in Hamilton for 12 months many moons ago.

I'm sorry I can't answer your specific question as to distributors in Australia. We have for the last 14 years used a Cimbali Junior pourover and when we did our kitchen five years ago we weren't thinking of becoming so addicted to our quality coffee as to think of plumbing it in. We could do it but the degree of difficullty is high hence the bias to pourover.

This website with all it's fantastic discussions has been detrimental to our fiscal status. Along with much useful advice from Ken Fox and others when I was repairing the Cimbali I have also been highly influenced by the testing and discussion of the GS3 by very able and knowledgeable people, allied with the strong reputation of La Marzocco.

Rosemary

Makanmata wrote:While I think that I could make the Elektra work if they had a pour-over option, neither machine is really designed for home use the way that the GS3 is, and both require beefed up electricals, lots more space, and I suspect throw off a lot more ambient heat.

I borrowed a GS3 for a week (link) during the summer and can confirm it throws off a tremendous amount of heat, at least as much as the Elektra A3. Teme has posted that "the [newer GS3] steam boiler now comes with partial insulation (top and back of the boiler)," so the situation may have improved.

Marshall wrote:Your personal disappointment is no reason to weave conspiracy theories out of thin air. No one is more upset about this than the ESI people. And, just to put my own disappointment in perspective, we had an entire coffee bar built out in our home with the GS3 template guiding the carpenter!

I don't think that is a particularly fair or accurate charactarization of the comment in my post. No conspiracy was alleged, and my disappointment did not in any way form the basis for my comment.

I am certainly disappointed, but that has nothing to do with the clearly identified basis for my comment. The fact remains that the machine is already listed by CSA, and is actually for sale in the rest of the world. IEC and UL standards are concededly not identical, but are not so wildly different that it should take a year longer to secure a listing or recognition from one or the other body. The explanation that the UL Rules have changed, or could be the sole basis for such a significant delay, does not in my estimation tell the whole story.

So what is the whole story? I don't know, and I don't feel that LM is being fully candid with their customers about the status of the machine -- and perhaps are not being candid to ESI either. I can say from my own personal experience, that while I don't feel economically abused in the sense that they are not holding any of my money and have never asked for a deposit or financial committment on my part, and are under no contractual obligation to deliver anything to me at any time, the story told to me has consistently changed over time and the repeated promises of imminent delivery have gone unfulfilled.

If you have more information than I about the specific UL Listing issues, and can tell me what specific listing Rule has changed or how that Rule differs from the IEC Rule, and further explain why the original equipment manufacturer of the component in question (the heating element) does not have it separately listed already or cannot get it listed when it is already listed sufficiently for sale to the rest of the world, or that there is a reason why in any case all of this could not have been dealt with in this extended period of time, then I will stand corrected. Until then, without any factual support for LM's laying this all at UL's feet, my assumption is that this is another piece of vaporware that has been announced too far in advance of its real world readiness for sale. This assumption is in no way based in any way on my disappointment, but rather is grounded upon objective facts and circumstances.

Lastly, I should point out that while I would have preferred more candor on the part of LM as far as delivery expectations, I would rather wait for a machine that is ready for public sale, then pay for a machine in which they are still ironing out bugs. I might actually be more agitated by this if I lived in Europe and had taken posession of a machine, which for some reason the manufacturer says cannot -- or in any case will not -- be sold in the United States.

Makanmata wrote:The Synesso is a particularly attractive machine, but it just doesn't seem at all practical for a standard kitchen (unless you have a very easy going spouse). It would be great if Synesso would follow LM's lead and tweak the design to shrink its footprint and make it friendlier for household electrics. Lots of us waiting for the GS3 would surely jump ship to that machine -- if it existed.

I don't see Synesso entering the home market any more directly than they already have with the 110 Cyncra. I'm sure that generally the home user is much more difficult to support than commercial clients. They do have a couple of other machines in development, but they're commercial & it'll be a couple of years before they're out in the US market. Still, I have a 110v Cyncra in my small kitchen (my whole house is 860 s.f.) & its not too bad. The plumbing & electrical work only took a couple of hours. My wife doesn't drink coffee but gets a lot of use out of the hot water tap making tea. We mostly just use the steam wand to heat bottles of formula for our son.