Peppersass wrote:The only real advantage of the paddle GS/3 is that it can do preinfusion with the reservoir.

It can't, preinfusion requires plumbing in. Only the regular GS/3 can do preinfusion from the reservoir (by pulsing the pump).

Neither can do effective pre-infusion from the reservoir.

The pulsing pre-infusion is nearly worthless, as is the ~1bar preinfusion off the reservoir on the paddle.

ken

Peppersass wrote:Well, Ken, at a price difference of $1000, which is what's published at espressoparts.com and wholelattelove.com, I can't agree with your advice. That's because I don't believe the current standard version is any less reliable than the current paddle version, and I suspect many people would be willing to give up low-pressure preinfusion to save a grand.

(snippage to preserve bandwidth)

I have not followed current GS/3 pricing and every potential expensive espresso machine purchaser will have to balance his needs (or wants) with his wallet.

Hacked in pre-infusion is nothing new and exactly what I did with my old rotary Cimbali many years ago, using a delay on make (DOM) timer, under the tutelage of Michael Teahan. One could do this on virtually any rotary pump driven machine, I would argue more elegantly and simply using a delay timer on the pump circuit, and with a pressure regulator on the water intake set at an effective PI level such as 3-4 bar. Now, having quite a few years experience with PI, I don't think there is any benefit to being able to exactly control the amount of time one pre-infuses. Having a delay timer set to do this for 5-7 seconds is perfect and requires no operator intervention. One can and should adjust the grind to produce the first few drops of the extraction at the end of the pre-infusion period.

The beauty of the paddle GS/3 is that as long as the machine is plumbed in, no hacking is required. It also substitutes a mechanical valve and replaces electronics and a solenoid, which is preferable in my view. It is also hard for any serious home barista to argue for volumetric dosing as a way to better espresso; it doesn't work, and if one doesn't cut the shot visually, or with a scale (for those 4th wave types), the espresso will really suffer. This point isn't even arguable.

It is true that I had a bad experience with my first GS/3, and I'm sure the problems present in that machine have been eliminated. Still, I chose to get a paddle machine as a replacement, and I could have chosen to get another regular GS/3. Based on the feature set, I chose the paddle, because I liked the idea of manual valve driven preinfusion with the elimination of some electronics and a solenoid as a bonus. I don't particularly like having my motivation for my purchase decisions being assigned to a specific reason that in fact happens to be incorrect.

There is only one thing that I miss from the regular type GS/3, and that is the autopilot detergent backflushing that one can do. I don't find it hard to do with the paddle machine, however it was easier and required less effort with the original GS/3 version.

ken

Ken Fox wrote:There is only one thing that I miss from the regular type GS/3, and that is the autopilot detergent backflushing that one can do. I don't find it hard to do with the paddle machine, however it was easier and required less effort with the original GS/3 version.

Ditto (or more accurately, since I never had the auto, "wish it had that feature")

Ken Fox wrote:I don't think there is any benefit to being able to exactly control the amount of time one pre-infuses. Having a delay timer set to do this for 5-7 seconds is perfect and requires no operator intervention. One can and should adjust the grind to produce the first few drops of the extraction at the end of the pre-infusion period.

I don't time the preinfusion. I just let it run at low pressure until the first drops of espresso begin to appear on the bottom of the basket. Then I switch the motor on. It turns out that with my ridgeless double basket there's always a slight whistling noise that accompanies the first drops of espresso, so I can just listen for that instead of bending over to look at the bottom of the basket. With most coffees, it takes 8-9 seconds for that to happen. I generally stick to coffees that work well with doses in the 14g-16g range, so there's not a lot of variation in the preinfusion time. The only significance of the time to me is that I like use Jim Schulman's rule of thumb to add half the dwell time to the post-dwell time to compute total shot time. I'm not obsessive about that, but like to keep it in the 25-35 second range as a reality check. But I don't use it to determine when to cut off the shot.

Ken Fox wrote: It is also hard for any serious home barista to argue for volumetric dosing as a way to better espresso; it doesn't work, and if one doesn't cut the shot visually, or with a scale (for those 4th wave types), the espresso will really suffer. This point isn't even arguable.

I hope my post made it clear that I agree with you about volumetric dosing. I used it for a good while, but in the end I found that it wasn't consistent enough. Whether that was due to variations in dose/grind or water volume, or both, I don't know. My point was that there are plenty of GS/3 buyers who like the volumetric dosing option. Some use it for a timed pre-flush, which is a little silly, but they do it nonetheless.

I don't think of myself as 4th wave, or any kind of wave, but I do weigh every shot (and the dose, too.) I find that cutting the shot at a certain target shot weight, which is based on a desired extraction ratio (dose weight / extraction weight), to be the best and most consistent way for me to pull shots. It also makes it easier to dial in coffees (e.g., adjusting the extraction ratio to determine if a particular coffee tastes better ristretto, standard, normale, lungo, etc.) I find that the shot weight is far more accurate than trying to eyeball the volume level, which can vary a lot depending on the consistency of the crema. Same goes for eyeballing the blonding point. It's not at all clear to me that the terminating blonding color and flow rate are identical for all coffees, and I guess I'm not experienced enough to always know what to look for. So, when dialing in, I like to shoot for the desired extraction weight to occur somewhere in the 25-35 second range. Then, if the shot's not reasonably balanced, I tweak the grind to move where the target extraction weight occurs within the time window. Once the shot is balanced, all I have to do is maintain that dose weight and grind setting, and pull to the target extraction weight. The results are pretty consistent (the K10 helps a lot in that regard.)

I guess the next logical step would be to spring for an ExtractMoJo system so I can measure the extraction percentage and see if the so-called optimum percentage really does produce the best shots. But at $500-$1000 for a complete kit, I think that's going to have to wait until I run out of other expensive things to do.

Ken Fox wrote:
The beauty of the paddle GS/3 is that as long as the machine is plumbed in, no hacking is required. It also substitutes a mechanical valve and replaces electronics and a solenoid, which is preferable in my view. It is also hard for any serious home barista to argue for volumetric dosing as a way to better espresso; it doesn't work, and if one doesn't cut the shot visually, or with a scale (for those 4th wave types), the espresso will really suffer. This point isn't even arguable.

I keep reading and I remain confused about the paddle operation in the GS3. In my machine (plumbed E61) I can pre-infuse by leaving the handle half way up in the mid position and using the line pressure. Does the GS3 adjust the line pressure with the paddle? How does it work?

Thanks

Arpi wrote:In my machine (plumbed E61) I can pre-infuse by leaving the handle half way up in the mid position and using the line pressure. Does the GS3 adjust the line pressure with the paddle? How does it work?

It works the exact same way as your E61. Gradually moving the paddle gradually opens a mechanical valve, if there is line pressure it will immediately begin to saturate the puck. Once the paddle reaches a certain position it will touch a microswitch which activates the pump.

thank you sir.

Peppersass wrote:I like to shoot for the desired extraction weight to occur somewhere in the 25-35 second range.

What do you mean by "extraction weight"? Are you weighing your ground coffee or using a visual shot glass with oz markings?

N.W. Freeman