AndyS wrote:As you know, the feature set, form factor, and performance (at least on paper) are hard to beat. But if I were ever to get a GS3, I'd sure pass on the paddle version and go with the simpler standard one.

And you'd be making a real mistake. I don't know where this idea that the paddle is complicated or excessively troublesome is coming from. What I know is that after a period of months (the LM tech, whom I believe, told me the usual home service interval has been ~9 months), one has to disassemble the valve and replace or clean a few O-rings and lube them up. Otherwise I have not heard a lot of complaints about it. The paddle machine also has a greater flow rate than the regular GS/3, presumably due to some change in the gigler, which is itself very desirable given the problems people have had with that gigler.

The paddle valve replaces a solenoid, and solenoids are not trouble free devices and they do need to be replaced on a regular basis because they fail. We will ask you in a few years, Andy, about how the 6 solenoids in your Speedster have done over time, and will await your response.

If I was looking at buying a GS/3 now, I would not even consider the "regular" version; I'd go straight to the paddle, slight maintenance issues it has, and all.

ken

another_jim wrote:My Versalab shtick has become so popular that I'm saving it for the Miss America talent competition.

Sorry mate, already been done.

I'm not sure that this bulletin addresses the leakage problem I have mentioned in this thread.

Neither am I but it does seem sorta relevant. The parts contained in your rebuild kit may very well be designed to handle both versions of the MP assembly - this would not be at all unusual in industry but it would be nice to have appropriate documentation.

If your machine does have the updated assembly (as per your s/n), I'm sure LM would be, or at least should be, very interested in your leak.

If by some chance it has the original MP build, the task of updating is pretty easy after you've done three or four or five but not necessarily for the first time around. Whether or not the special puller for the o-ring/spacer assy is actually required or just makes the task a lot easier is unknown to me.

Ken Fox wrote:And you'd be making a real mistake. I don't know where this idea that the paddle is complicated or excessively troublesome is coming from. What I know is that after a period of months (the LM tech, whom I believe, told me the usual home service interval has been ~9 months), one has to disassemble the valve and replace or clean a few O-rings and lube them up.

I have a friend with a paddle GS3, and he says he's had to replace the o-rings twice in a year. He said to me recently that he loves the machine, but he should have gotten the non-paddle version. That, combined with what I read here, prompted me to make the comment I did. It wasn't meant as a put down of your machine or your purchasing acumen; it was just my casual opinion.

Oh, also, years ago John Blackwell from LM was going to sell me a classic old GS that he hadn't used in years. But the deal never happened because when he put it on the test bench, he couldn't stop the paddle from leaking. Although I'm sure the GS3 design is different, it made me wary of LM paddles.

Ken Fox wrote:The paddle valve replaces a solenoid, and solenoids are not trouble free devices and they do need to be replaced on a regular basis because they fail. We will ask you in a few years, Andy, about how the 6 solenoids in your Speedster have done over time, and will await your response.

You are right, solenoids are not trouble-free devices, although the solenoid in my Silvia went 10 years without issues.

I haven't checked lately, but I thought my Speedster has 4 solenoids in total. How many does the GS3 paddle machine have?

AndyS wrote:You are right, solenoids are not trouble-free devices, although the solenoid in my Silvia went 10 years without issues.

I haven't checked lately, but I thought my Speedster has 4 solenoids in total. How many does the GS3 paddle machine have?

Hi Andy,

When I was over at Mark Prince's place last spring we spent some time with his Speedster. He told me and I believe we counted, 6 solenoids in all in that machine. The GS/3's parts brochure is quite confusing in that no parts list with description of the parts is given, only schematics. These schematics appear to show each solenoid TWICE, so that one can see where the solenoid goes, plus all the little pieces that go inside of it and on each side in assembly. Interpreting those diagrams as best as I can, I count 3 solenoids in the regular GS/3, and 2 in the Paddle.

My own paddle machine started leaking from above the valve after about 7 months, which is not inconsistent with your friend's experience. I have "nursed it along" for another couple of months, knowing that the leak stops once the machine comes up to temperature. But I'm going to have to work on those seals very soon and intend to do so later this week when I have the time.

I think we should try to find if there is another source for at least the O-rings in the kit, which I think could be obtained for a few bucks in total if one was not paying the LM parts dept. premium to have them labeled as "official O-rings."

Ken

erics wrote:Neither am I but it does seem sorta relevant. The parts contained in your rebuild kit may very well be designed to handle both versions of the MP assembly - this would not be at all unusual in industry but it would be nice to have appropriate documentation.

If your machine does have the updated assembly (as per your s/n), I'm sure LM would be, or at least should be, very interested in your leak.

If by some chance it has the original MP build, the task of updating is pretty easy after you've done three or four or five but not necessarily for the first time around. Whether or not the special puller for the o-ring/spacer assy is actually required or just makes the task a lot easier is unknown to me.

Hi Eric,

The updated assembly in the paddle, not what is addressed in the service bulletin but rather what they changed after serial number "GS0785," may be present in ALL GS/3 paddles since I think they had gotten above that serial number for GS/3s before they started making the GS/3 in a paddle version. Mine has a serial number just below 1000 and it has it. I am not entirely sure that the serial numbering given in the bulletin really refers to GS/3s, at all, but rather to their larger machines.

I do not think that LM would be the least bit surprised to hear that I have the leak that I have with that updated assembly. The assembly was not "updated" for that reason (although I don't know why they did that updating, honestly). The tech I spoke with when I noticed the leak was very matter of fact about it with me and said this happens when the O-rings need to be replaced, which they consider normal maintenance for that machine and all the new paddle design machines. The "updating" of the paddle design was for the internal components, and the O-rings are on the periphery, external to the innards.

According to the tech, the special puller is NOT necessary, and in fact it costs a fortune for what it is ($150 or so if memory serves). I was told that a plastic implement can be used but that one must be careful to avoid scratching anything.

ken

Ken Fox wrote:Hi Andy,When I was over at Mark Prince's place last spring we spent some time with his Speedster. He told me and I believe we counted, 6 solenoids in all in that machine.
Ken

I'm guessing that your count included the two Solid State Relays located center rear that control the two heating elements. There are only 4 water control solenoids inside the Speedster.

I noticed in the innards of a Speedster and a Cyncra that the solenoids were from Parker-Hanifin. These maybe more robust, industrial duty types then those used in other machines, anyone know?
KDM

Ken Fox wrote:And you'd be making a real mistake. (snip)

If I was looking at buying a GS/3 now, I would not even consider the "regular" version; I'd go straight to the paddle, slight maintenance issues it has, and all.

ken

Well, Ken, at a price difference of $1000, which is what's published at espressoparts.com and wholelattelove.com, I can't agree with your advice. That's because I don't believe the current standard version is any less reliable than the current paddle version, and I suspect many people would be willing to give up low-pressure preinfusion to save a grand.

However, I just checked the prices at Chris Coffee, and they're identical -- same as the price for the standard version from the other two vendors. Assuming that's not a typo, it might seem a no-brainer to go for the paddle version. But in my opinion, the difference comes down to whether you prefer volumetric dosing (available only on the standard version) or low-pressure preinfusion (available only on the paddle version.) I myself would choose the latter, but many others may not. Besides, if you're willing to do a little simple rewiring inside the standard version, you can have both. Read on to find out how.

Now, I realize that your advice isn't based on features. I believe it's based on your perception of the relative reliability of the two versions. No doubt your opinion has been heavily influenced by the very unfortunate experience you had with repeated gicleur clogs in your original GS/3. As someone who had the same problem, I can report that the replacement machine I received, which was probably one of the last "warehouse" machines shipped to Franke, or perhaps one of the first non-warehouse machines shipped to Chris Coffee after Franke closed shop, has had a rock-solid nominal flow rate for the nearly 18 months I've owned it. There's never been the least hint of clogging (uh, knock on wood, famous last words, etc.) I test the flow rate every time I do a detergent backflush, which is once a week.

Further, when I finally popped the cap on the group head, I found the TL-30 tube well-crusted with green "verdigris" and little particles of the green stuff floating on the bottom of the group, just as you did. I cleaned the verdigris off the TL-30 tube and out of the group, and haven't opened the group since. Given shadowfax's experience, I wouldn't be surprised if the verdigris has grown back to some extent, and I'll have to clean it off one or two more times. Nonetheless, the flow rate remains nominal.

While others besides you and me have had clogged gicleurs in their GS/3s, I do not believe it has been a problem for the vast majority of GS/3 owners, going back to the first machines shipped. I believe the problem existed, perhaps randomly, in a small subset of machines, either due to a manufacturing flaw, inadequate QA, and/or sitting with moisture inside in Franke's warehouse for an extended period of time.

I've not heard of any clogged gicleurs with later standard GS/3s. I heard a rumor that LM now makes the standard GS/3 with a plated TL-30 tube, which would likely prevent the formation of the green verdigris. I've inquired through my dealer several times about whether I can get one of these tubes as a replacement part for my GS/3, but so far I've not gotten a reply. Something tells me LM doesn't want to discuss it.

As you know, there were other problems with the early GS/3 machines. Most notably, many machines were quite noisy and some had excessive vibration as well. Repositioning the pump and switching to a slightly longer pump output hose helped in some cases, but for many the problem would return intermittently. My understanding is that this problem has been eliminated in later GS/3s by putting a bushing between the pump and motor, and moving the entire pump and motor assembly to the left. Unfortunately, the fix cannot be retrofitted to earlier machines, but shouldn't be a problem for someone buying a new standard GS/3.

I managed to solve the problem entirely on my older model GS/3 by outboarding the pump and motor, ala the Speedster. It required a bit of extra expense and labor, but the result was more than worth it. The expense and labor depend on how you do the project. The pump is easy to remove from the GS/3, but the motor is not -- it requires significant disassembly to get the boilers out of the way. Instead, I elected to spend the grand sum of $165 to get a replacement motor so I could leave the original motor in place. The replacement I bought happens to be from a Vivaldi II, and was half the price of the LM replacement part. The size and operating specs are the same, and you'd have a hard time discerning any difference from the original motor. There must be one company that makes all these motors. The replacement motor came with its own mounted capacitor, so I didn't have to remove that from the GS/3 either. I was also able to obtain a 5-foot braided output hose with 100% compatible fittings at both ends (including the 90-degree bend for attachment at the tea mixing valve), also a standard Vivaldi II part. It was a simple matter to disconnect the wiring for the in-place original motor and connect the new motor, and it will be simple to reassemble and reconnect everything should I sell the machine later. The hardest part of the project was finding just the right place to mount the new pump/motor assembly inside the cabinet next to the GS/3. [Note: I'm familiar with working on electronic devices and have the equipment to do so. Don't try this unless you know what you're doing or can get help from someone who does.]

This relatively easy mod completely eliminates noise and vibration in the GS/3, making the machine smooth as glass to operate. I especially like the fix because, in my opinion, any vibration at all is a negative for a device with so many fittings and connections that might work loose over time.

As a bonus, I was able to install a motor cutoff switch next to the machine, so I can optionally use line-level preinfusion (set to about 3-bar in my case). I've found this to be particularly effective for lower doses, especially for singles, and frequently use it for higher-dose blends as well. Although I haven't done any blind tastings, I believe my shots have improved somewhat as a result. Nothing earth-shattering, but I like it enough to keep doing it. I've also tried using line-level pressure at the end of a shot, but so far haven't found that it makes any difference. While my jury-rigged motor cutoff may not produce the exact same flow characteristics as the paddle GS/3's valve system, my guess is that there probably isn't a discernable difference. As BillC has said, there are three options for the paddle GS/3: off, low pressure and high pressure. That's what I have, too. The only real advantage of the paddle GS/3 is that it can do preinfusion with the reservoir. My setup only works when the machine is plumbed in.

The poorly designed drain box cover, which splashes water all over the counter, is also a common complaint of GS/3 owners. LM now makes a new cover that solves the problem pretty well. I believe it's now standard equipment on both versions of the GS/3. The new cover can be obtained for older machines, though at an outrageous price of $300. I was very lucky to have obtained one at no cost, but that's another story that will remain untold.

The other issues I've had with my GS/3 -- a failed brew boiler gauge, a clogged vacuum breaker valve, loose connection on the steam boiler level probe -- they could just as easily happen with the paddle version.

My point is, a current-model standard GS/3 is a reasonable choice. I don't believe gicleur clogging is a perennial problem for these machines, the noise/vibration problems have been fixed, and I'm sure there have been other improvements since the original machine you bought was manufactured. If a customer is willing to install a simple motor cutoff switch (you don't have to outboard the pump and motor for that), most of the benefit of the paddle machine can be obtained without sacrificing other features like volumetric dosing (I don't use it, but the next person who owns my machine might...)

I do concede that the .6mm gicleur does increase the probability that maintenance eventually will be required in that area (gicleur replacement is a common maintenance item on other LM machines.) But I don't believe it'll occur any more often, be significantly more expensive in terms of parts, or will be any more difficult than replacing the gaskets on your paddle version's valve. From what I've read in this thread, my gicleur in my old standard version has already lasted a lot longer than the valve gaskets in your paddle version.

aecletec wrote:Sorry mate, already been done.

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Good one, mate.