I bought a used Cimbali Junior and have opened it up, cleaned, descaled by dumping the solution into the boiler and siphoning, etc. but I just went to turn it on and I'm not exactly sure if it's working properly. That was the first time I powered it on but quickly turned it off so the element doesn't burn out (that was definitely heating). I have the D/1 (plumbed and autofill, four selections on the right front dial for shot size I assume) version with the clear plastic reservoir in the back left if you look at the machine from the front where the buttons and dials are. I'll describe what I did and maybe someone will have some suggestions. The left knob was in the off (North) position when I plugged it in, the right knob was in the small single cup position (NW). I turned the left knob to the on position and the two lights came on, the orange and green. I heard a humming/buzzing sound but no water was being pumped into the boiler. I didn't have it plumbed but rather had the water connection running into a jug of water. I only waited a few seconds and then turned it off because the boiler started to heat up but had no water in it. I almost think it could be the pump but I have no idea, and I'm not familiar with multimeters. The machine was very clean given its age, and there was barely any scale in the boiler. Anyone know if I was trying to fill the boiler the wrong way? I don't have an instruction manual but I assumed it would start filling once I turned it on, using the autofill feature (?). I even tried pushing the round button between the dials but nothing happened when I did. I'm hoping someone has some suggestions as I'd like to get this machine up and running without ruining it or burning out the element. Thanks for any help.

If its an older d1 with a vibe pump it will need some sort of pressure on the input line, probably at least 10psi. A rotary pump will lift and prime but the vibe pump model will not. I have a D1 made in 2000 with vibe pump

Spresso_Bean wrote:I bought a used Cimbali Junior and have opened it up, cleaned, descaled by dumping the solution into the boiler and siphoning, etc. but I just went to turn it on and I'm not exactly sure if it's working properly. That was the first time I powered it on but quickly turned it off so the element doesn't burn out (that was definitely heating). I have the D/1 (plumbed and autofill, four selections on the right front dial for shot size I assume) version with the clear plastic reservoir in the back left if you look at the machine from the front where the buttons and dials are. I'll describe what I did and maybe someone will have some suggestions. The left knob was in the off (North) position when I plugged it in, the right knob was in the small single cup position (NW). I turned the left knob to the on position and the two lights came on, the orange and green. I heard a humming/buzzing sound but no water was being pumped into the boiler. I didn't have it plumbed but rather had the water connection running into a jug of water. I only waited a few seconds and then turned it off because the boiler started to heat up but had no water in it. I almost think it could be the pump but I have no idea, and I'm not familiar with multimeters. The machine was very clean given its age, and there was barely any scale in the boiler. Anyone know if I was trying to fill the boiler the wrong way? I don't have an instruction manual but I assumed it would start filling once I turned it on, using the autofill feature (?). I even tried pushing the round button between the dials but nothing happened when I did. I'm hoping someone has some suggestions as I'd like to get this machine up and running without ruining it or burning out the element. Thanks for any help.

Thanks for the tip, and I was thinking maybe it needed pressure but wasn't sure. I'll have to wait until I can hook it up to the water supply as I am still in the process of cleaning it out and shining it up. I really appreciate the help, as I am going to this from a Gaggia Evolution and not having any manuals or anything I am relying on info from this site, Coffeegeek, alt.coffee, etc. but I didn't see anything on what you mentioned. I'm not even sure of the year it was made, but there are two stickers under the drip tray area and one is half missing, the other has the serial number and model number. Again, thanks and I think that could be what solves the problem I was having as mine is a vibe pump and plumbed model D/1.

Edit: Just another question regarding this - my Gaggia has a vibe pump but will lift the water up into the boiler. Is the Junior's pump different somehow that it doesn't do this? I'm just curious, and I know the design of the Junior is different (much better quality) than the Gaggia but there must be a reason why the Junior would need water line pressure to pull water in. I have been reading your (mauricem) posts along with Ken Fox's and those have helped with many things so far...great info.

Spresso_Bean wrote:
Just another question regarding this - my Gaggia has a vibe pump but will lift the water up into the boiler. Is the Junior's pump different somehow that it doesn't do this? I'm just curious, and I know the design of the Junior is different (much better quality) than the Gaggia but there must be a reason why the Junior would need water line pressure to pull water in. I have been reading your (mauricem) posts along with Ken Fox's and those have helped with many things so far...great info.

thinking about it more carefully I didnt explain it very well , yes you will need mains pressure but not for the pump!
The pump takes water from the dosing chamber and sends it to the group head. It does not fill the boiler and does not need mains pressure.

The line pressure is required to fill the boiler which is independent of the pump. The autofill sensor opens the solenoid valve for the boiler intake as the boiler is under pressure the intake line must be pressurized to greater than the boiler pressure. (eg if max boiler pressure is 1.4bar or 20psi then line pressure would need to be >20psi)

This is my very rudimentary understanding and I may well have missed some function of the solenoid valves but the end result is the same it will need a pressurised intake line.

When I was testing the rebuild in the shed I hooked up a gravity feed which had enough pressure to open the solenoid for the dosing chamber but not enough to fill the boiler, my work around was to remove the autofill sensor and manually fill the boiler with a funnel

Thanks! That helps a lot, and I can see the various solenoids and other parts but most of this stuff is new to me as to how it all actually works together, and I didn't want to ruin it by doing something incorrectly. I'll wait until I can hook it to a water supply to fully test it, but this at least gives me hope that everything could be functioning properly. The insides were very clean when I received the machine, hardly any scale in the boiler/HX area for its age. The outer brass panels are slightly dented in a few areas but I guess that's something I can live with. Thanks again.

If you can rig up some sort of gravity feed operation, with a sufficient column height of water, you should be able to get enough water pressure to fill the boiler.
I'm note sure if this will be easier than getting some plumbing going for you or not.

Just a thought.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll see if I can rig something up and get it to feed, otherwise I'll just try running it from the water supply I have going to my ice maker (filtered water) once it's all cleaned up and ready to go. I need a new drip tray, group gasket, and shower screen for sure. The shower screen that came with it has some gunk that just won't come off even after soaking it in Cafiza, OxyClean, etc. Easier to buy a new one since they're fairly cheap. I was just excited to try and power it up but it might be better to wait until I can plumb it in. I believe I can handle that myself but reading about the threads on the fittings (British Standard?) I might run into some issues. It's a bit intimidating so far to handle this beast of a machine going from a plastic Gaggia lol.

Update - I tried filling the boiler manually through the hole where the water level sensor attaches to the boiler, turned it on, and it was holding pressure. I was able to get steam but no water through the hot water tap, and only steam came out of the group when I activated the pump. Is the hot water tap controlled by the pump? I am guessing only steam came from the group because the HX wasn't filled with water after manually filling the boiler. Is this a pretty accurate diagnosis? It seems to be working well and held around 1.5 bar on the gauge, which to me was a good sign. Haven't hooked it to a direct water supply yet but should this solve the problems I am seeing with the steam from the group and the hot water tap working properly? I don't even know how I'd go about finding an instruction manual for this older model - anyone have a PDF copy they wouldn't mind sharing? I appreciate all the help.

Oh yeah, also is a bit of steam coming out the valve above the water level sight glass normal? I had steam rising up out of there the whole time after it heated up, not a ton but enough to notice.

Spresso_Bean wrote:Update - I tried filling the boiler manually through the hole where the water level sensor attaches to the boiler, turned it on, and it was holding pressure. I was able to get steam but no water through the hot water tap, and only steam came out of the group when I activated the pump. Is the hot water tap controlled by the pump? I am guessing only steam came from the group because the HX wasn't filled with water after manually filling the boiler. Is this a pretty accurate diagnosis? It seems to be working well and held around 1.5 bar on the gauge, which to me was a good sign. Haven't hooked it to a direct water supply yet but should this solve the problems I am seeing with the steam from the group and the hot water tap working properly? I don't even know how I'd go about finding an instruction manual for this older model - anyone have a PDF copy they wouldn't mind sharing? I appreciate all the help.

I've got to think that getting some feed pressure is going to help but... have you verified it is a vibe pump model?

Not knowing the exact hydraulics schematic leaves me guessing as to what all requires feed pressure and what actually pumps. It could also be an issue of the pump not priming. If it is a vibe pump, it might be a good idea to disassemble the pump and clean it. You could also rig up a way to test the pump will in fact move some water. For an Ulka pump, this link shows some good disassembly instructions:

http://www.myschiffman.org/cg/rebuild.html

While all the vibe pump parts might look okay to the eye, a quick citric soak and reassembly might get you going.

Use caution and common sense, electricity and water don't mix well

You might also try posting some pics for HB members to see.

Cafeparts.com sells some PDF manuals. You might try local repair shops and offer to pay something for a photocopy. A call out on alt.coffee might get you something.

Oh yeah, also is a bit of steam coming out the valve above the water level sight glass normal? I had steam rising up out of there the whole time after it heated up, not a ton but enough to notice.

This is the vacuum breaker or anti-depression valve. You should have steam leakage at warm up but once you start to get some pressure in the boiler, it should seat and stop leaking. You can try cleaning it, replacing the o-ring seat or getting a new valve.

Thanks, I saw that Cafeparts sells some manuals but I'm not sure if it would be worth the $30 or so they charge. I was able to snap a few pictures of the back of my Junior, and you should be able to see the vibe pump and the valve that you mentioned is an anti-depression valve. It might just need a new o-ring since I cleaned the part as much as I could before powering it up. I'm just afraid to disassemble some of the parts since they're not leaking so far, other than the anti-depression valve that is slightly leaking steam. I only had it powered on for around 15 minutes and it was already at 1.5 - 1.6 bar and holding well, steam wand worked great, just the hot water tap didn't produce anything and the group just gave me a puff of steam. I am guessing it could just need a direct connection for everything to work properly, but from what I see it looks promising. I was expecting the machine to need a good deal of work and replacement parts as it was in storage for a few years and I bought it "as-is". Anyway, the people here and on the other sites know much more about this machine than I do, so the help is really appreciated as I learn the basics of working with the Junior. The pictures show the drain line from the shot reservoir disconnected as I'm still cleaning it out.

By the way, I see that some people use CLR to clean up their brass and copper, but CLR is not recommended for use on those metals. Would it really ruin the copper lines in the machine to just clean them up with a bit of CLR on a cloth?

how much water did you top the boiler up with? can you see the small colored ball in the sight glass? Im concerned that you may have a near empty boiler which would explain why you are only getting steam out of the hot water tap. The feed pipe for the hw tap extends to about the level of the empty mark on the site glass. The boiler element will blow pretty quickly if its not fully submerged

the antivacuum valve (aka anti siphon, vacuumbreaker) regularly leaks on these machines, try a new oring or just buff the brass seat

re gravity feed water, I had a line from a drum with about a 10' head and it didnt produce enough pressure to fill the boiler but it would fill the dosing chamber

heres a link to a hydro diag for manual fill S1 courtesy of owen egan

"http://owenegan.com/pix/espresso/cimbuini/misc/cimbali%20junior%20hydraulics%20diagram.jpg"

I definitely made sure the element was submerged before testing it out (don't want to burn out an expensive part like that), and the green ball was up at the max level once it heated up. I actually removed the water level sensor on top of the boiler so I could fill it manually with a funnel, and I made sure it was at the level of the sensor's tip or slightly more. I was able to get steam from the steam wand but not any hot water from the tap to the right of the group head, but I was thinking maybe the vibe pump needs to be activated (with the round button between the dials on the front) for that to make the water flow? I turned it off after a short time not wanting to ruin anything, and since I didn't have it hooked to a water supply it most likely wouldn't be working the way it should. I really just wanted to test it out before investing a good amount of money on some new parts that it needs. I'm fairly confident that it should work after a bit of cleaning and a few new parts, water softener, and a direct water supply. I hope I'm not wrong about that, but Owen Egan's site does have a lot of great information. I saw his Pasquini-badged version which was really rough on the inside. Glad mine isn't that bad. Thanks!

Spresso_Bean wrote:I definitely made sure the element was submerged before testing it out (don't want to burn out an expensive part like that), and the green ball was up at the max level once it heated up. I actually removed the water level sensor on top of the boiler so I could fill it manually with a funnel, and I made sure it was at the level of the sensor's tip or slightly more. I was able to get steam from the steam wand but not any hot water from the tap to the right of the group head, but I was thinking maybe the vibe pump needs to be activated (with the round button between the dials on the front) for that to make the water flow? I turned it off after a short time not wanting to ruin anything, and since I didn't have it hooked to a water supply it most likely wouldn't be working the way it should. I really just wanted to test it out before investing a good amount of money on some new parts that it needs. I'm fairly confident that it should work after a bit of cleaning and a few new parts, water softener, and a direct water supply. I hope I'm not wrong about that, but Owen Egan's site does have a lot of great information. I saw his Pasquini-badged version which was really rough on the inside. Glad mine isn't that bad. Thanks!

The element is NOT an expensive part, it is a cheap part, and exists in both OEM and knockoff versions. Whenever pulling the element out, it is a very good idea to also have a spare seal available (also a very cheap part) and probably a little food safe silicone lubricant, for putting it all back together, without leaks, later.

ken

Spresso_Bean wrote: I was able to get steam from the steam wand but not any hot water from the tap to the right of the group head, but I was thinking maybe the vibe pump needs to be activated (with the round button between the dials on the front) for that to make the water flow? !

the hotwater valve relies on boiler pressure only, the pump is not needed for this function. Sounds like it could be a scale blockage in the feed pipe.

fyi In Australia the genuine 1800watt boiler element is about $130 and the "knock off" 1300watt part is $85, I know becuse I had to replace mine

I guess I didn't realize the elements weren't as much as I thought I saw, but either way if I can save the one I have it would give me more money for other parts or beans, etc. I'll post some pictures when it's all cleaned up and working, along with the matching brass Junior grinder I have. I am really impressed with the build quality of the Cimbalis.

Spresso_Bean wrote:I was able to get steam from the steam wand but not any hot water from the tap to the right of the group head, but I was thinking maybe the vibe pump needs to be activated (with the round button between the dials on the front) for that to make the water flow?
.....

I really just wanted to test it out before investing a good amount of money on some new parts that it needs.

Jeff-

I am fairly sure you've got a keeper there... if you are not missing anything and the autofill controller is working, I don't think you will end up in any sort of disastrous situation. You know the boiler holds pressure, but the biggest thing that you do not know that might be a royal PITA is the heat exchanger.... worst case it is ruptured or bulged and ruptured and that could be bad.

On the hot water, as Maurice said and the hydraulic diagram would indicate, it uses boiler pressure to push the boiler water up a feed tube from the bottom of the boiler. Some Cimbali machines use a mixing valve (they refer to it as an economizer in their documents) that uses cold water from the pump and mixes with hot water from the boiler. You can change the mixing rate to adjust the temperature. On my M32, the hot water tap is activated by an electronic switch, and it will not function until the boiler temp is high enough.

As next steps in determining the state of the machine, I would consider evaluating the pump as I said before, and then pulling the grouphead and heat exchanger, and/or the heating element so you can evaluate the scale situation of the boiler. If it is heavily scaled you may wish to do a more extensive teardown and restoration.

BTW, you should see if you can adjust the boiler down to closer to 1 bar.

Thanks for all the help everyone. I will have to go ahead and check out the HX but I assume to reassemble I'd need some gaskets which I don't have at the moment. Looking into the boiler from the hole where the water level sensor is on top, I don't see too much scale or any issues with the parts of the HX that can be seen from there, but again that doesn't guarantee anything. I'll look for some info on adjusting the boiler pressure to 1 bar or so, since it was actually holding around 1.6 bar which to me seems too high. From this point it would probably be best to check out the various parts such as the pump, HX, etc. and then go from there as you mentioned. One other thing I noticed was that the sheet metal shell piece where the steam and water knobs are appears to be aluminum on mine, maybe with some sort of anodized brass finish. I tried wiping it with some water and Oxy Clean solution, and it gave the part a very hazy, dull blotchy look. I might have to paint it if I can't buff it out.

You have a Sirai pstat... it is that gray covered box to left of your first picture. Remove the top screw to pull the cover off. Inside there is an adjustment scew... it should indicate ± for which way to turn it. On the Sirai you can turn in 1 revolution increments no problem. You can replace a membrane (in the neighborhood of $30) if it is not working well.

On the heat exchanger, when you pull the grouphead off, and pull the HX tube out there will be 2 or 3 gaskets, so yes, you may wish to wait.

Thanks, I'll have to open up the Sirai and try adjusting the pressure until it's around one bar. Great info.

I was able to connect my Junior directly to a water line to see if everything would function properly. I turned it on, everything started filling on its own (boiler, shot reservoir in the rear corner). The problem was that after it stopped filling, somehow water kept filling the boiler and the water level sight glass filled completely and started leaking quite a bit from the top part (where the vacuum breaker is since it doesn't seal up on mine until the boiler pressure reaches a certain point, at least that's what happened when I tested it by manually filling the boiler). Could this be due to an unregulated water line connection? I saw another leak around where the heating element bolts to the boiler, which didn't happen when it pressurized in the initial test. I'm curious if anyone might know why this happened. The sight glass filled up so much that the float ball was up and touching the bottom of the vacuum breaker.