... forgot to mention that with most other blends the flush (4-5 sec beyond flashing), then rebound 10 sec's is incredibly consistent. I do use this machine in my basement (which hovers between 50F-64F year-round), so that probably accounts for why I've found the higher stock setting to be best.

tomesd says he's getting good control with cooling shots, but if he's leaving the pf in when he's doing it all I can say is that there simply isn't enough time for me to remove, fill, tamp, and seat the pf without the machine returning to its "base temp" (which I'm defining as the brew temp within a couple of minutes after a long cooling shot with the pf in). In my experience cooling shots with the pf in -- whether singles, doubles or triples -- result in pretty much the same brewing temps because even the short the lag in dosing and prepping is sufficient for the machine to return to the base temp dictated by the p-stat.

I'm not arguing with tomesd's results, just saying that if (as I understand it) he's cooling with pf in the head, the method doesn't work for me.

Ken's right. The Junior, in any incarnation, is not made for the sort of convenient, consistent and reproducible fine adjustments a critical taster or roaster would like to have going from coffee to coffee. And admittedly, my method is half-assed at best.

That said, it seems Cimbali's and Chris's revisons -- culminating in the Casa -- cure a multitude of ills. The Casa is, IMO the equal of any HX for home use.

BDL

PS. My machine is in a dedicated coffee room. There, the environmental temp ranges from the low sixties (what passes for a cold winter morning house temp in sunny, Southern California) to mid seventies (thank God for air-conditioning).

The last cooling flush is without the PF in it. In order to come up with the flush regime I obviously had to remove the PF to lock in the Scase PF. The time to prepare the shot was built in to it by necessity.

This morning: 10 second hot water flush- big flush with PF in place- double flush as I prep for shot (maybe 30 sec)- small flush- pull double. My temps are between 197-199ish consistently with this flush routine, great with redbird!

If I omit the double flush the temps are a little hotter, add more they are cooler, etc. I wanted to come up with a reproducible routine to get a decent first shot after it's been idle a while and I'm happy with the results- if it's in use and stable I just mini flush it and go like everyone else I suspect.

Edited to add: I totally agree that the junior isn't a machine you can fine tune with perfect easy temp control like with a dual boiler and a PID. It forces you to think about the chemistry behind it- not too much, just a little. When I chose it I decided I wanted a tank that would last 25 years- one that would pull great shots depending on how my barista skills developed. IMHO the junior is a perfect balance between stability and the art.

Tomesd wrote:
Edited to add: I totally agree that the junior isn't a machine you can fine tune with perfect easy temp control like with a dual boiler and a PID. It forces you to think about the chemistry behind it- not too much, just a little. When I chose it I decided I wanted a tank that would last 25 years- one that would pull great shots depending on how my barista skills developed. IMHO the junior is a perfect balance between stability and the art.

Several years ago we had frequent threads about fine shot temperature management, even people claiming that they could taste temperature differences that are beyond the ability of any machine to deliver, and the ability of the measuring devices used to measure with. Those threads have disappeared.

A well known forum participant, JonR10, recently sold his GS/3 in favor of an older design Faema E61 machine. I myself have gone back and forth between my GS/3 paddle and my 16+ year old Cimbali Junior S Pourover, and have not detected any difference in shot quality, with the caveat that I know how to use both machines.

There is enough ability to alter shot temps present in most any HX machine, including the Junior. The ease of getting those intended shot temps varies, but it is present in most any design.

ken

ive been coming back to this thread all weekend and all the while ive been pulling some stellar shots on my cimbali jr. Great as they were i could see the truths of many commenters here while i was operating my little jr. and i really appreciate what all the combined data ( on H-B and coffeegeek) has done for my ability to pull even better shots. i took a couple hours late last night (yea, i was on H-B on a Saturday night! ) to read alot of the older cimbali jr threads too. I guess ill have to agree that the stability of the cimbali isnt perfect, i wouldnt call it unstable but you do have to treat it like what it is, you cant pretend its going to do the work for you and machines like the jr need technique and finesse. Its a very simple machine, I like my super portable cimbali jr and I think there are some very lucky folks on here who have some great set-ups that have much greater control over a large number or variables. If the future of espresso machines were to put my old jr. at the low end of machines that produce great espresso ... that would still put a smile on my face, but i would need to visit your homes and taste espresso just to make sure!

just to stick with the topic of the post i will add .. while grinding and tamping i set an empty steam pitcher under the group head and pull 2 long shots , and a short shot .. then load the portafilter and pull a real shot. If you have enough cups (and people) to keep the flow going i pull a short shot of water to rinse the portafilter then another shot prior to re inserting the newly loaded PF.

Mark

After everything is said and done, it appears we're all pretty much on the same page. Perhaps the thing we share most is using LOTS of water to toy with temps.

Tanx Gott my machine is plumbed in.

BDL

Agreed- if you consider "LOTS" as about a Coke cans worth!

That's true. It's barely a bagatelle for a plumbed in machine. If you're emptying drip trays and refilling reservoirs it seems like a lot more.

BDL