La Cimbali Junior Casa

Need help with equipment usage or want to share your latest discovery?
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boar_d_laze
Posts: 2058
Joined: 17 years ago

#1: Post by boar_d_laze »

After 22 years of faithful service my Pasquini Livia 90 finally gave up the ghost.

I called Chris Coffee with the idea of getting some advice and allowing it to percolate. But considering my experience with HXs and general preference list, the choice seemed obvious so I went ahead and ordered a Junior Casa. My old grinder, a Pasquini Moka, was purchased at the same time as the Livia. And, while it wasn't shot it was so very, very tired. So... I bought a Max/Hybrid to go along with it.

It's probably not even worth mentioning anymore how straightforward Chris Coffee made the choice itself and purchasing process (h/t Mary), and how much help they gave with installation instructions (h/t Roger).

Anyway... It showed up on the 27th, was placed in our shrine to hot water and plumbed in on the 28th, was brewing some horrible swill later that day, and by the morning of the 29th was pumping out shots bordering on adequate. Today, better.

Adequate is pretty damn good considering the bunk mix I'm using -- roughly equal parts of cheap Brazilian, TJ Sumatra and TJ Guatemalan. Yeah it tastes like crap, but it's pretty sensitive in terms of revealing flaws -- going from sour to bitter and/or no crema to nothing but crema in nothing flat. Just what you want, right?

In addition to the other variables, I decided to try an actual and in fact tamper instead of using the one attached to the doser as I have for the past few decades. Can't have too many variables.

My first thought was to use a slightly coarser grind to compensate for the stiffer tamp, but that turned out to be not so good -- sour. The CMH allows some very fine adjustment, and for now I'm using a grind a little finer and fluffier (by feel) than the grind I'd used with the Livia. I'm not a scale / thermometer type of guy, but believe adequacy arrived with the usual water dance, a fairly fine grind, a slight updose and a stiff tamp.

Pulls are more than 25 seconds, less than 30. Sometimes I use the free pour switch to shut off the automated dosing when the coffee blondes, sometimes not. Crema is nicely patterend and speckled. Taste is coffee with notes of bounced checks and health-food tortilla chips, but no sourness or bitterness. The aftertaste, also strongly coffee, lingers. Obviously a tough call, but even at this stage of inexperience I don't believe the Livia / Moka would do as well.

My impression regarding my own barista skills, is that I have significantly more control over dosing and tamp than I did yesterday. There's some comfort in the thought that it's probably not that steep a learning curve. Wait. Is it? It is, isn't it?

The La Cimbali's been around long enough that its aesthetics and ergonomics don't need much additional description.

But, let me say that the pre-infusion feature makes a positive difference compared to machines which don't have it one way or the other. It really works. You want it.

The dual manometer so far doesn't convey much information I would not gather in some other way. On the other hand, I've been wanting a gauge since they first became prevalent just for the look of it and now I have one. With two arrows.

The new and improved frothing tip is ridiculously easy to use. On the one hand, I almost never use milk myself, and haven't had much of a problem doing passable (but not excellent) milk for others over the years. On the other, I make a large latte every day for one particular other and the Casa does it faster-better, while demanding less skill and attention.

So far, I'm loving the looks of the machine and the way it handles. But the grinder... oh mama!

Thoughts, questions, observations and advice not involving anatomical impossibilities are welcomed.

Nice to be back.

Oh frabjous day! Calloo! Callay!
BDL
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

Ken Fox
Posts: 2447
Joined: 18 years ago

#2: Post by Ken Fox »

Congratulations on your new purchase!

Why not buy or roast up some good coffee that is worthy of your new equipment?

Enquiring minds want to know . . . . .

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955

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boar_d_laze (original poster)
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#3: Post by boar_d_laze (original poster) »

Hey Ken,

This particular mix is an excellent diagnostic for grind, tamp and temp. It's also cheap enough to seasoning the burrs. I've got about 4 lbs through them, with about 1-1/2 lbs left.

I was thinking another couple of days with it, but after today's consistency the only point would be working out guilt for spending so much. You made your point, and I am ready to call it quits with the hair-shirt. Tomorrow, I'll either switch to the TJ Guatemalan -- which isn't as bad as it could be -- just to see what sort of SO notes come through, or trash all the cheap stuff and break into the pound of whatever-it-is that Chris included as a giveaway with the machine.

Then... Black Cat.

After getting the espresso skills into passable shape, a Behmor might just fit in to my patio ensemble.

Oh yeah. Thanks for all the La Cimbali inspiration. You seem to have been... what's the word? Oy yes. Right.

Me gonna love it long long time,
BDL
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

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boar_d_laze (original poster)
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Joined: 17 years ago

#4: Post by boar_d_laze (original poster) »

Moving on to better coffee -- Machristay Black Pearl -- has revealed some other aspects of the equipment's personality.

The Casa is not an easy machine to temperature surf. Maybe Ken's PID solution is the best way to go for home use, maybe not. Without it... The pressure out of the box was too high, and forced me to use the hot water tap to lower the pressure and temp in the boiler in order to get some control of the water in the HX from day one. Even after lowering the pump pressure (to 9 bar). the hot water tap remains an important part of the water dance.

There's just so much mass in the Casa that unless you're pulling a steady stream of shots, you not only have to draw a lot of water through the HX you have to lower the temp in the boiler as well so the boiler itself isn't supplying so much energy to the exterior of the entire water path.

The volumetric water dosing makes the dance a little easier. But if you want to get good pulls, you'll use the free pour button to shut off the flow based on blonding. There's no substitute for paying attention.

It's hardly news but bears repetition that the DT/1 is at its best when making lots of coffee. Regular home use like four morning doubles requires flushing a LOT of water. The machine is stable in flux, but too hot at rest.

Man, that grinder is sensitive! Switching coffees and the mercurial weather (something you don't see much of here) has me playing with grind and tamp pressure. I'm back to a fine grind and light tamp with the Black Pearl -- but the fine grind comes from a coarser setting. I don't find the Max/Hybrid loud at all, at least not compared to my old Pasquini Moka. I suppose it's a matter of what you're used to.

I am loving everything about the grinder and doser.

It was quite a few months between the time the Pasquini broke and the Casa came. And when I bought the machine and grinder, I also bought my first American style tamper. So, there was some rust to knock off and some new techniques as well as all the equipment shuffling.

The first shot sequence goes like this: Big flush; wait; medium flush; run hot water tap; short flush; wait; warm cup with hot water tap; short flush; grind, dose, tamp, pull the double. If you're not already familiar and reasonably skilled at taming an HX, this one is pretty complicated. If you are, it's a lot of water -- but since it's plumbed in at both ends, what the hell?

With the good coffee (about a week into the project), I started pulling consistently VG to E shots. I don't expect any godshots with this particular mix, but the new average is surprisingly close and much better than the old Pasquini average.

Milk is stupid easy.

Double manometer; Automated dosing :wink:
Preinfusion; Plumbing in; "Home" steaming tip :mrgreen:

Worth four large for the machine and grinder? It seems increasingly likely.

BDL
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

Junior
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#5: Post by Junior »

Thanks for the first notes. I have a much earlier version of the Junior and went through much the same temperature gymnastics at first. The architecture of the new machine still resembles the old enough that I suspect the same temperature regulation mechanics hold true. Using the hot water tap to regulate temperature suggests the pstat is still too high. Drawing off water from the bottom of the boiler via the tap in order to lower the temperature of the shot is not a very efficient way of going about things. By having a higher pstat, you are overheating the entire path from boiler to portafilter and reducing its ability to work as a heat sink. As long as you are getting good steam performance, keep lowering the pstat until you get the right temperature. The advice I got was to quit screwing around with incremental changes. Do some big changes and see what the effects are before settling in on tiny adjustments.

I find that the bigger issue is that once the machine is at a stable temperature, it is really difficult to get it to change from that temperature. So much mass means that shot to shot changes are not easy. One may be able to change the initial first few seconds, but the rest of the shot is going to come out based on the overall boiler/path temperature.

The beauty of the junior design is that it is incredibly consistent. Once you have a shot dialed in, it is extremely repeatable. The problem is that it has quite a lot of inertia, getting it turned to a new heading take a lot of time.

Love to hear that the new steam tip is working. Keep us posted on your observations.
Michael

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boar_d_laze (original poster)
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#6: Post by boar_d_laze (original poster) »

Since I'm only drawing from the tap for the first cup in the morning or after the machine has idled for more than a half hour, I think I'll hold of on dialing down the pressure for a little -- but I promise to get to it after I've settled on a basic blend for the time being.

My plan is to get the temp/pressure nailed down to within an RCH for whatever blend I'll mostly drink -- probably following your advice or damn near -- then mostly stray from it with varietals having a similar temp profile and making whatever adjustments are necessary with the grinder and tamper. Which is fine, I knew that about the La Cimbali going in.

The plan to run by Intelligentsia (in Pasadena) and pick up some Black Cat, probably go with that for a few months, then take stock of the situation and maybe buy a Behmor remains.

But plans have a way of changing under the best of circumstances and I need a new car. What's the automobile analog of a La Cimbali Junior Casa and Junior Grinder combo? Taurus SHO? Nothing says old like an Avalon, so another one of those is out since I now officially am old and retired.

Funny how $3K for a machine seems reasonable, but $15 for a pound O'Beans seems ridiculous, and $300 for a Behmor seems absolutely unreachable when contemplating a $45K car.

The steamer tip just... works. No ambivalence there.

How long after buying a new machine does it take to cut down to three doubles in the morning?

BDL
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

Junior
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#7: Post by Junior »

boar_d_laze wrote:
How long after buying a new machine does it take to cut down to three doubles in the morning?

BDL
I don't know, my intake seems to be going up. :roll:

Black cat took a lot of work for me, sometime the shots were great, but a lot of variability. The junior seems to really prefer headroom in the basket. My most solid results come from blends which have a profile with regular dosing, as opposed to updosing. Regardless, keep us posted on your observations as you put the machine through its paces.

As for cars, my old no frills machine reminds me of a mid-60's mustang. I think that both the cimbali and 60's ford engineers would each be appalled at hearing that analogy.
Michael

Tomesd
Posts: 35
Joined: 13 years ago

#8: Post by Tomesd »

How's the Junior working out? Are you still happy with the choice? I'm planning on calling Chris's next week to place the order (Please confirm my research!).

Javacat
Posts: 144
Joined: 16 years ago

#9: Post by Javacat »

The Junior Dt/1 is a fantastic machine. True, it does take a bit of practice to get the flushing down, but once you develop a feel for the machine, it WILL pull some of the most incredible shots of any machine on the market. It is very predictable and the temp can be flushed very precisely by watching and listening to the water stream. I have owned or used all the top home machines (pid's and h/x's) on the market, and would not trade any of them for the Junior... except for maybe a Speedster :wink: . When people compare machines, very little thought is given to the water flow rate and the shower pattern from the screen which is very critical to a full, even extraction. This is where this machine really shines. If there is one minor fault with this machine, I would have to say the pressure ramp up is a bit too hard at the beginning of the brew cycle which can lead to channeling if your not careful, but if your tamping is spot on then I would say this is not an issue at all. Steaming performance is fantastic as well (although I don't make many milk drinks) - pouring hearts and rosetta's is a breeze. Very nice machine, and extremely quite. Laid-back asthetics reminds me of an infinity G-37x - quiet, laid back looks, but can easily keep pace with the most flashy, high-end sports cars.

Dogshot
Posts: 481
Joined: 19 years ago

#10: Post by Dogshot »

Congrats on the new setup. I think the DT1 stands out today more than ever as a shining example of the beauty of parsimonious design and engineering. I was all set to get one myself, but then took a 90° turn and got an Elektra Semiautomatica. It might seem like a complete reversal in choices, but the Elektra shares with the Cimbali the qualities of having a great group head and simple but effective design.

I cannot understand why Cimbali has not integrated its Thermodrive into the DT1 - it seems like it's a mixing valve that introduces unheated water into the brew path to lower the brew temp. It sounds like a brilliant way to add on-the-fly adjustability to the brew temp while leveraging the DT1's temp stable attributes.

Have you considered getting an 18gm VST basket to use with those coffees that like to be dosed above 16.5gm?

Mark
LMWDP #106

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