Have just installed and older Cimbali Jr. (#447727, expect it is around 20 years old). It is directly plumbed in to an R/O system with a Calcium Citrate filter in the loop. Had a few problems after installation but it seems to be working ok now. I had it back in the late 90's but gave it to my son and he has recently returned it to me. After I gave it to him, I started using Astras and still have them. But since I have the Cimbali back, I want to make use of it.

I have the following questions: What is the PF size (or basket); it is less than 58mm but don't know what? I see on this site where some have replaced the P-Stat with a PID; don't know the difference between the two, what advantage the PID offers, and moreover how difficult and expensive the PID is to install.

My shots are ok, not great, I'm experimenting. It seems that I'm caught in a dilemma. If the grind is coarse enough to get a double in 20-25 seconds, the shot is watery. If the grind is fine enough to get a double at the right consistency, it takes 30-35 seconds and may be over extracted.

Suggestions anyone has for operating this unit and/or modifying would be appreciated. It is in good condition. I purchased it new originally and it has not been overused.

Thanks,
Buzz

buzzon wrote:Have just installed and older Cimbali Jr. (#447727, expect it is around 20 years old). It is directly plumbed in to an R/O system with a Calcium Citrate filter in the loop. Had a few problems after installation but it seems to be working ok now. I had it back in the late 90's but gave it to my son and he has recently returned it to me. After I gave it to him, I started using Astras and still have them. But since I have the Cimbali back, I want to make use of it.

I have the following questions: What is the PF size (or basket); it is less than 58mm but don't know what?

It is 58mm; you can use most any 58mm PF basket except for ones that are too big, such as an LM Triple. If you buy a bottomless PF or cut out the bottom of one of your PFs, then you could put an LM triple basket in (not that I recommend that).

buzzon wrote: I see on this site where some have replaced the P-Stat with a PID; don't know the difference between the two, what advantage the PID offers, and moreover how difficult and expensive the PID is to install.

The PID install will reduce the "hysteresis" (e.g. temperature fluctuation) in the boiler. It also would afford the possibility to use novel approaches to shot temperature management, such as what I did with my own Juniors (posted about ad nauseum on this website; use the search function, terms like "Cimbali" and "PID" or look in the "resources" section). The wiring itself is not that hard however the mounting and installation is a real PITA. Years ago, when I did this modification on my machines it seemed to be worth doing, however, now in 2010 there are a lot of temperature stable machines available for purchase and I probably would not go to the hassle to do it.

buzzon wrote:My shots are ok, not great, I'm experimenting. It seems that I'm caught in a dilemma. If the grind is coarse enough to get a double in 20-25 seconds, the shot is watery. If the grind is fine enough to get a double at the right consistency, it takes 30-35 seconds and may be over extracted.

This is almost certainly related to the coffee you are using. If it is not very fresh, or if the grinder you are using is not up to the task, then you will get the sort of results you describe. This is not a machine specific problem, rather a generic one. This website has many threads and discussions on these issues (hundreds, I'm sure), about grinders and coffee freshness, and I suggest you have a look around.

buzzon wrote:Suggestions anyone has for operating this unit and/or modifying would be appreciated. It is in good condition. I purchased it new originally and it has not been overused.

Thanks,
Buzz

I am assuming that your machine is a vibe pump machine, since the rotary Junior would not have been available when you bought the machine. Assuming this to be true, then the only other modification worth doing on a plumbed in Junior, the installation of a delay timer, would be of limited to no value.

My suggestions would be to get some good quality fresh coffee (many recommendations on this site regarding sourcing), make sure your grinder is up to the task and if it needs work (such as a replacement set of grinding burrs) do that, and see what develops. One other thing you could do is to buy a cheap 0.1g digital scale (search for threads with search term "scale") which should cost $10 or less, and weigh your doses to be sure they are consistent. You will find that the Cimbalis prefer not to be updosed. I'd suggest working in the range of 14 to no more than 16.5g for a double shot.

ken

I own a vibe Junior too, standard, no PID; recently I switched grinder, from Mazzer Mini to Faema MC, and made the major step ever, along with a lot of exercise.
HB has lot of useful informations, stated one has time to read, try, discover and learn.

Pierluigi

Thanks to you both. My coffee is fresh; I do my own roasting with greens from SweetMarias and occasionally buy from Counter Culture, Metropolis and Klatch among others. The experimentation process was with La Forza from Counter Culture roasted 11/10. My grinder is a Super Jolly with relatively new burrs.

I suspect the problem is more of me getting used to the La Cimbali again. bz

buzzon wrote:Thanks to you both. My coffee is fresh; I do my own roasting with greens from SweetMarias and occasionally buy from Counter Culture, Metropolis and Klatch among others. The experimentation process was with La Forza from Counter Culture roasted 11/10. My grinder is a Super Jolly with relatively new burrs.

I suspect the problem is more of me getting used to the La Cimbali again. bz

(Previously)

buzzon wrote:My shots are ok, not great, I'm experimenting. It seems that I'm caught in a dilemma. If the grind is coarse enough to get a double in 20-25 seconds, the shot is watery. If the grind is fine enough to get a double at the right consistency, it takes 30-35 seconds and may be over extracted.

There are a number of variables here and without seeing what you are actually getting in person, it is hard to reach a conclusion.

What volume do you believe you "should" get with a 20-25 second double shot? In France, that would be 5 or 6 oz if I can extrapolate from the singles that I get served there, and those are thin swill to my taste. My own preference is for around 1.75 to 2 oz. in a standard double shot, and those are not "watery."

But if you want a "ristretto," or a restricted shot, one is typically shooting for a lower volume, say ~0.75 to 1.25 oz, and this sort of pull will take longer to get. 35 seconds is not unreasonable, and a 35 second shot is not by definition "overextracted," unless the volume is "too much," like if you got 3 oz.

This is not original on my part, however the shorter the shot, the longer it takes to pull properly. This is sometimes called "Al's rule," in honor of an old-time alt.coffee poster, Al Critzer.

As a general guideline, at least based on my own practice, I'd say that a standard double should take from around 20 to almost 30 seconds, allowing for variability in the shots, with the proviso that the shot timing and volume and appearance does not make a good shot, you have to taste it to know if it is good. For a shorter shot or "ristretto," I'd shoot for a shot time in excess of 25 seconds, preferably in the 30 to 35 (or even 40 second) timeframe. Once again, you have to taste it, and simple shot parameters will only guide you, they cannot tell you that a given shot is good or bad.

And finally, not everyone likes every coffee or blend, and a given coffee might show better at different doses or shot timings.

good luck,

ken

Thanks Ken. At one grind I am getting around 2 oz. in between 20 to 25 sec. But, with this one, it appears too thin ie watery. By tightening the grind a couple of notches, I'm getting a restretto ie a little more syrupy but to reach 2 oz., I have to let it run 30-35 seconds. I like the syrupy shot but I thought it should produce 2 oz. in 20-25 seconds. There is not much room between my grind settings. In brief, I was hoping to achieve a little more volume of the thicker espresso in the 20-25 second range. I guess I'm afraid of burning the coffee and getting a bitter taste if I let the draw go 30-35 seconds.

Last year I spent a day with Heather Perry, one on one, in her shop learning extraction and latte art techniques. She told me to adjust the grind until the shot looked like angel hair pasta coming out. Then keep tasting the shot during the draw until it was bland. Mark the time and that is the optimal relationship between the grinder and espresso machine. But, we didn't address volume except to say add more coffee. On my Astras I am able to get 2 oz. in 20-25 seconds. I guess that I can just take more time on the La Cimbali as long as it doesn't get better.

I didn't measure the dose but I do have scales. I simply leveled off the PF, tamped 30 lbs., and pulled the shot. I'll try measuring and see what happens.

Buzz

buzzon wrote:Thanks Ken. At one grind I am getting around 2 oz. in between 20 to 25 sec. But, with this one, it appears too thin ie watery. By tightening the grind a couple of notches, I'm getting a restretto ie a little more syrupy but to reach 2 oz., I have to let it run 30-35 seconds. I like the syrupy shot but I thought it should produce 2 oz. in 20-25 seconds. There is not much room between my grind settings. In brief, I was hoping to achieve a little more volume of the thicker espresso in the 20-25 second range. I guess I'm afraid of burning the coffee and getting a bitter taste if I let the draw go 30-35 seconds.

Last year I spent a day with Heather Perry, one on one, in her shop learning extraction and latte art techniques. She told me to adjust the grind until the shot looked like angel hair pasta coming out. Then keep tasting the shot during the draw until it was bland. Mark the time and that is the optimal relationship between the grinder and espresso machine. But, we didn't address volume except to say add more coffee. On my Astras I am able to get 2 oz. in 20-25 seconds. I guess that I can just take more time on the La Cimbali as long as it doesn't get better.

I didn't measure the dose but I do have scales. I simply leveled off the PF, tamped 30 lbs., and pulled the shot. I'll try measuring and see what happens.

Buzz

Meaning no disrespect, a "downdosed" shot to Heather Perry is one made with 19g. of coffee. If you watch any of her videos on the internet, she talks about using doses of around 23g.

I don't think you can compare the results that she gets with her equipment, dosing like that, to the results you are going to get with a Cimbali, that cannot tolerate that sort of updosing without major hiccups.

ken

I'm aware of what she does in competitions and videos, but that notwithstanding, her instructions to me were for my machine (at that time only an Astra) and my usage. Her explicit instructions were: for a single shot, fill the basket, level off & tamp, more or less about 15 grams; for a double shot, partly fill the basket, tap the basket on the grinder forks and fill some more, level off & tamp, more or less about 20 grams. Then, to adjust the grind, go through the process that I previously stated, that is, get to angel hair consistency and start tasting until bland then stop the draw. During my session with her, the bland taste started coming in around 18 to 19 seconds.

I think I just need to follow that regimen and let the volume be what it is going to be. As long as the taste is good, I will live with the time and volume. bz

Ken probably knows as much about pulling shots on the Junior as anyone and his advice is excellent. Junior likes lower doses with finer grind. This is partly due to the excellent La Cimbali double portafilters with very small holes. Also be careful with the flushes - read the HB review (http://www.home-barista.com/junior-buyers-guide.html) as it has excellent flushing advice. I find that WDT and a bit of nutation when tamping make a big difference, especially if you get any spritzing or channeling.

edit: Also, from my limited research into serial numbers, yours is from around 1994 or so.

Thanks Mike, that is very helpful; will review the site info today. Mike, one more question, my 58mm tamper seems a little large for the PF, is 57mm the standard for an older La Cimbali? bz