Izzo Alex has gone cold...slowly! - Page 2

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Alex G (original poster)
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#11: Post by Alex G (original poster) »

It's been a busy couple of days, it being Christmas and all, and I'm only just now getting a chance to take a look here. Eric, I'm going to fire off an email to Chris and the service department at Chris Coffee where I purchased this machine now that I think we have figured this out (or are at least are pointed in the right direction). Not sure their holiday hours but when I hear a reply I'll post the salient points here.

I'm still curious about what you think of SSR relays. You hint that this might be too advanced a DIY for someone like me with limited electrical experience. Will an SSR require a different wiring setup? True enough that I lack the experience, but with clear instructions I'm certain I can manage it. The real question is - is there a benefit?

Alex.

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erics
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#12: Post by erics »

Yes, I would say an SSR is more reliable BUT I am not intimately familiar with the Alex Izzo wiring. Yes, I believe I understand how the mechanical relay on your machine works and that is why I said (above):
The one white wire likely would come from the bottom pstat terminal. So, when the machine is in its failed state, the bottom terminal of the pstat should still have voltage as well as the one white terminal on the Finder relay.
Is this so?
When the machine is in a failed state, AND assuming the coil in that relay is faulty, there should be infinite resistance across the control end of the relay - disconnect wires and measure.
Is this so?

You can email CC and refer them to this thread and see what they have to say.
Skål,

Eric S.
http://users.rcn.com/erics/
E-mail: erics at rcn dot com

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Alex G (original poster)
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#13: Post by Alex G (original poster) »

Powered up, turned on... the bottom terminal on the pstat reads 117v, the white terminal on the relay reads 117v too. I assumed you meant to check resistance across the control end of the relay with the power off. Correct? I disconnected the wires, and w machine unplugged got a reading of 1ohm. Do I need to do this test w power?

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erics
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#14: Post by erics »

No, you checked as best you could. I was trying to "catch" the relay in a failed state with the power off and the wires disconnected as I do not know where the two blue wires on the other terminal go.

When the relay gets control power, the blacks are connected electrically and the blues are connected electrically as they are are the load side of this relay.

edit - 12/27 - some more info: The mechanical relay you have installed is double-pole, single-throw, normally open (DPST). I did a quick look through some SSR sites and could not find any SSR's that would fit the bill - obviously two SSR's properly heat sinked would work but you need the space to install and this would require some minor additional wiring. I also took a quick look at the CC parts listings and those of Bella Barista - no listing for this relay so that leads me to believe it is NOT a frequently replaced part. Hence my suggestion to simply replace what you have - assuming that the relay is at fault - which APPEARS to be the case.
Skål,

Eric S.
http://users.rcn.com/erics/
E-mail: erics at rcn dot com

Alex G (original poster)
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Joined: 17 years ago

#15: Post by Alex G (original poster) »

Eric

I have now exchanged emails with Chris at Chris Coffee. He was kind enough to take a look at this thread and, from the info you helped me come up with, has agreed that it seems like a simple failure of the relay. I'll speak with his service team on Monday an hopefully put this to bed.

He suggested that while an SSR retrofit is possible, it would be more trouble than it's worth (hmmm... I seem to recall similar sage advise not too long ago!). I think I'll take your/his advice and stick to a straight replacement with the same relay. I'll keep you posted.

Alex.

Alex G (original poster)
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#16: Post by Alex G (original poster) »

UPDATE!

AACK!!!

I received the new relay from Chris Coffee today and have had a chance to swap it out - easy, piece of cake... Sigh, there's still something up with the machine! Now, with the new relay, I still get no voltage at the heating element. AND, I get a new symptom - When I turn on the machine I hear what sounds like a relay switching in the Gicar controller (definitely not the same relay click as the power relay).

I re-swapped out the relay and put the old one back in and was able to replicate the last experiment - knock the relay with my knuckle... loud click...115v for a couple of seconds... soft click... power back to 0v.

Eric, any insight? You seem to be one of the most technically knowledgable folks online!
I'll email Chris Coffee and see if they have some ideas, and let you know.

Ack! This is frustrating!!!
Alex.

kinkbmxco
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#17: Post by kinkbmxco »

Im not too savvy when it comes to the technical aspects of espresso machines, but ill include my experiences for what its worth... I have an Alex MK1 which I purchased from Chris' Coffee about a year and a half ago. The first issue I had with my machine about 8 or 9 months after having it, it mysteriously just wasn't heating up, with the aid of Chris' Coffee we did some troubleshooting (replacing the power relay and pressure stat) which proved to be unsuccessful, so I ended up sending in the machine to chris coffee... It turned out to be my Gicar box, which they replaced.
Unfortunately that wasn't the end of my problems, Since then, I have come home to a cold machine twice. Both of these times it turned out to be a power relay issue.
I seem to remember experiencing some of the same symptoms when I first ran into a problem. After I replaced the power relay, I would hear a click, but it wasn't from the relay it was from the Gicar Controller, it was a more faint click.
Hmm.. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, is there even a way to test to see if a Gicar Controller is faulty?
I know it's frustrating, I hope you are able to get your Alex up and running soon!
Good Luck.
Chris

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erics
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#18: Post by erics »

Im not too savvy when it comes to the technical aspects . . .
But you are pretty savvy when it comes to a recollection of events and that DOES HELP.

Alex - when you turn the machine on, the relay you hear from the Gicar may very well be the autofill relay which switches the pump and fill solenoid valve on. Yes?

The white wire connected to the relay should read 115 volts anytime the machine is calling for heat and it should connect to the lower terminal on the pstat and nothing else. The terminal on the relay (opposite the white) with the pair of blue wires should also read 115 volts at the same time. If this voltage drops to 0, either the pstat has been satisfied or the machine has gone into its failing state.

I see where one of the blue wires on the relay is connected to the heating element. Does its opposite blue wire go to the Gicar box?

Disconnect the two black wires from the relay and the two blue wires. If any metal is exposed from the plastic insulators, put a piece of electrical tape over the ends. Now turn the machine on (from cold) and there should be essentially 0 ohms between the relay terminals where the blacks connected and 0 ohms between the terminals where the blues connected.
Skål,

Eric S.
http://users.rcn.com/erics/
E-mail: erics at rcn dot com

Alex G (original poster)
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#19: Post by Alex G (original poster) »

Hi again guys

Eric, I can't believe how patient you are helping out like this! Thanks.

I have put the new power relay back in the machine. So...

Yes, when I turn on the machine, the click I am hearing definitely seems to be coming from the Gicar. I can tell because I put my ear right beside it and turned it on and off a couple of times. (I think the autofill works though because earlier I emptied the boiler to examine the element, and when I put it back in and turned the machine on, the pump kicked in and the water level went back up, then stopped filling at the proper level.) Also, if it helps, the very instant I hear the click, the red light comes on on the front panel of the machine.

Indeed, the white wire is currently reading about 117v when tested at either the pstat or the relay, and it seems that it is connected nowhere else. The terminal w 2 blue wires opposite the white wire is currently reading 0v. Failed state I imagine as there is no pressure in the cold boiler!

As far as where the second blue wire goes, the wiring ducks and dives in several directions obscured by things and there are several blu wires. The best I can do is this pic, showing 2 blue wires connected at the secon position on the left side of the Gicar. Honestly, I'm not sure where they originate. Should I start disconnecting blue wires one by one and test for continuity? I'm really loathe to start unbundling wires to physically trace their path.



When I disconnected the pairs of blacks and blues and tested for resistance I did not get what you anticipated. I got 1 ohm between the blacks, 1 ohm between the blues. (Yes, with power turned on!)



Again, forgive my newness at this, but is 1 ohm the same as saying infinite resistance? i.e. no connection between them?

As always, thanks to everyone who has made suggestion so far. I'll be sharing the info I get from this thread with the folks in the service dept at Chris Coffee. And I'll share what I learn from them back here. Somehow every time I think I've put my thumb on this problem, it manages to squirm free! I'll squish it yet!!

Alex.

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mhoy
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#20: Post by mhoy »

No, 1 ohm is fairly small resistance.

Mark