another_jim wrote:The only gotcha is that the vacuum breaker will be open when the machine is cold.

We... uh... covered that already.

'Q' wrote:Hey Jim,
Thanks for the response. You make a good point about easily being able to do a good complete flush of the boiler after descale. I believe it would be very effective and efficient at flushing with rinse water after the descale. I also like the point of being able to do the whole descale cold if one so desires. I was unaware that there are hot water taps on home machines that are on their own HX. That would change the process a bit.

Your point about vibe vs rotary pump is true. But for filling, by simply attaching the sprayer to the "hot water tap" and filling through that, you bypass the pump alltogether and thus it doesn't matter which style pump you have. In fact, my machine is the Expobar Pulser and has the vibe pump and I had no problem filling the boiler quickly and easily without disconnecting the hose on the pump. One of the main ideas behind this is to be able to do it without having to get "under the skin" of the machine, it can all be done externally.

is there a one way valve on steam and hot water wands that stops water from flowing back into the boiler? if there wasnt, wouldnt that mean milk could get sucked into the boiler?

No, there's not (at least not that I have heard of)

The boiler is never under a vacuum, so it can't suck milk up. But, if you steam milk improperly you can get milk up the steam wand. There are cleaning supplies specifically for cleaning out that milk if you need them.

'Q' wrote:No, there's not (at least not that I have heard of)

The boiler is never under a vacuum, so it can't suck milk up. But, if you steam milk improperly you can get milk up the steam wand. There are cleaning supplies specifically for cleaning out that milk if you need them.

from here: http://www.home-barista.com/forum...g-t1683.html#14472

cannonfodder wrote:As to the how could milk get sucked into the boiler question. Not all machines have vacuum breakers. My machine does not have a vacuum breaker (it is a 2 group commercial that is not normally turned off). When it cools, it does develop negative pressure in the boiler. If you put the water wand in a pitcher of water, open the valve, it will suck the water out of the pitcher.

FYI, i did a search for 'rinza'

im not debating if it happens or not, just if its possible. anyway, have you tried your technique? does it work? how do you do multiple fills? when i descale i empty boiler a few times over the course of the process, through the 2 wands, to clean them too. youd have to let the machine completely cool each time to do this, right? also, you have to do this with the machine off, right? how do you know when its filled if the fill solenoid is still in?

cannonfodder wrote:As to the how could milk get sucked into the boiler question. Not all machines have vacuum breakers. My machine does not have a vacuum breaker (it is a 2 group commercial that is not normally turned off). When it cools, it does develop negative pressure in the boiler. If you put the water wand in a pitcher of water, open the valve, it will suck the water out of the pitcher. "

OK, I stand corrected. Using a machine that does not have a vacuum breaker valve (mine does) and heating the machine up, releasing steam, closing all valves and shutting the machine off, letting it cool to room temp, then holding your pitcher full of milk up to the steam wand and opening the steam valve, I guess you could do it. In which case you'd WANT one of these to flush the thing out!

have you tried your technique?

I've tested the ability to fill and empty the boiler with it, yes. I have not done an actual descale with it yet as I'm not in need of a descale at the moment.

does it work?

Yes

how do you do multiple fills?

Fill it up, empty it out, repeat. Sorry, I don't really understand the question. You could probably even do a continuous flush of 1/2 to 1 gallon of water (depending of the size of sprayer you got) easily.

when i descale i empty boiler a few times over the course of the process, through the 2 wands, to clean them too. youd have to let the machine completely cool each time to do this, right?

Well, no. IF you fill, heat, then drain, you'd have to turn the machine off and release the pressure in the boiler through either the water or steam valve before attaching the sprayer and refilling. If you're just flushing or cold descaling, you can fill and flush as much as you want. Remember you can use the sprayer to pump either water/solution or air into the boiler. Use the air to force out the existing water to drain it and to slightly pressurize a cold boiler to close the vacuum breaker.

also, you have to do this with the machine off, right?

You'd want to be using the sprayer with the boiler not under steam pressure. This usually means the machine is off at the time.

how do you know when its filled if the fill solenoid is still in?

I'm not sure I understand this question. The electronics of the machine are not in play since you're manually filling. You can pump the water in through the water tap and fill it until water comes out the steam wand.


I'm thinking maybe a video demo might be in order to show this in action. That would be a chore, but people are obviously confused as to how this works.

i understand how it works, i just understood that the fill solenoid had to be disconnected. i guess thats only to over ride autofill.

re: multiple fills - if you open wand to refill while its hot, it wont take water, since the tank is under pressure. you have to let the machine cool, or at least wait till pressure is released. this could be time consuming if you do multiple fills.

ill have to think about trying this if i have the desire to buy a chemical spray tank for my espresso machine.

OK - I see where you're coming from.

i just understood that the fill solenoid had to be disconnected. i guess thats only to over ride autofill.

That's just it though, doing this you don't have to open the machine and disconnect or change anything.

re: multiple fills - if you open wand to refill while its hot, it wont take water, since the tank is under pressure. you have to let the machine cool, or at least wait till pressure is released. this could be time consuming if you do multiple fills.

In my experience, if I turn off my machine and take the steam tip off, I can open the steam valve and have all the pressure released from the boiler within about 20-30 seconds.

I wanted to revive this thread to see if anyone else has used this method. My hot water tap stopped working, due (likely) to scale, and pushing descaling solution from the outside of the tap (then plugging it to keep the solution in the pipe) may be more efficient than the usual routine of introducing solution through the pump. Especially because not being able to drain the boiler though the tap before filling it with solution would make it difficult to introduce concentrated solution.