ive been thinking of this. HX machines seem to be the most temperamental in terms of shot quality. you can get a great shot with a fresh roast, good grind, good distribution, solid tamp, the winds blowing east, the moon to the west.. well, you get the idea.

now, lets say i go to the store and buy a bag of lavazza beans. assume they are ~2months old, b/c you can sort of degas the bag. grind tight, expecting the worst, and you still get a 10 sec pour with blonding after 8secs.

now, i take that same coffee, same grind, and throw it in my old ass krups thermoblock. it jams the machine. i assume its b/c the krups cant output at ~9bar as the hx can. regardless, slightly more course grind, and a better shot comes out than the hx. (yes, this is relative)

so, i experiment further, same old beans, into a full auto machine. perfect shot. pleases the masses. not bitter. not FULL of flavor as described in the 'great shot' scenario above, but good nonetheless.

well, now i wonder, why not just use some fresh beans in the full auto machine? the result? again, not a 'great shot' but still nice, everyones happy, etc.

now, im lost. sometimes its hard to keep a fresh supply of beans on hand. even with freezing some shortly after roasting, roasting myself, ordering online, and so on. one day, 15 people will show up unexpectedly, and i wont have coffee. and, i CANT go to the store and buy some lavazza or illy. why? b/c itll be much much worse than even the mediocre shots my krups can supply. so, what do i do? blush, put my 10yr old thermoblock in front of my new $1500 giotto, and supply them with lavazza? (which they still see as good, not 'strong like that big machine makes') talk about embarrassing.

i know ill get the reply "well just always have fresh coffee!" and more ridicules.. but seriously, it doesnt make sense. can these things really be that finicky?

are the double boiler semi-auto types better in this regard? if a machine that doesnt know what beans im using can always guarantee a 2oz shot in 25 secs, how the hell cant the most anal of techniques not do this consistently without the moons in alignment, as above!? i think im confused.

Saying HX machines flawed and incapable of great shots is analogous to saying my grill keeps burning and making my steaks into shoe leather. Sorry, but the problems are on the handle side of the portafilter. HX machines take some user temperature management to be sure, but your problems sound to be more in the grind and PF build department. Low end pump machines like the Krup's use pressurized PFs that don't require proper build technique. Same for super-autos.

Do you live close to anyone that can help you learn in person?

miKe mcKoffee wrote:Saying HX machines flawed and incapable of great shots is analogous to saying my grill keeps burning and making my steaks into shoe leather. Sorry, but the problems are on the handle side of the portafilter. HX machines take some user temperature management to be sure, but your problems sound to be more in the grind and PF build department. Low end pump machines like the Krup's use pressurized PFs that don't require proper build technique. Same for super-autos.

Do you live close to anyone that can help you learn in person?

did i say they were flawed? i hope not. i thought i implied (ie, i wrote) they were temperamental. i do think they put out great shots, at least from what ive made, but only have myself to compare to :/

if i make a shot 4-8 days after my espresso is roasted, its great. if its too dry out, it tends to be fast (yes, could be my 'low end' QM grinder), its its too humid, tends to be slow.. and so on. ie: temperamental.

my krups doesnt have a pressurized pf, and i actually cut it bottomless. guess my $100 (at the time) krups is a high end machine. lol.

I didnt think superautos had a pressurized pf either, since the ones ive helped friends clean are simply a plastic chute with 2 holes and a squared funnel above that sits under the basket. i think the basket is square too, from what i remember the 'tamper' looking like, but cant be sure.

LeoZ wrote:did i say they were flawed? i hope not. i thought i implied (ie, i wrote) they were temperamental.

what is the title of this thread?

LeoZ wrote:if i make a shot 4-8 days after my espresso is roasted, its great. if its too dry out, it tends to be fast (yes, could be my 'low end' QM grinder), its its too humid, tends to be slow.. and so on. ie: temperamental.

are these issues not the same for everyone? humidity changes requiring grind changes to keep same pour. doesnt matter if i have a brewtus or a silvia or a pulser, humidity will change the pour/grind correct?

i agree...handle side of PF. sounds like grind needs to be finer to me. i have an HX and i think it is great.

jon

LeoZ wrote:if i make a shot 4-8 days after my espresso is roasted, its great. if its too dry out, it tends to be fast (yes, could be my 'low end' QM grinder), its its too humid, tends to be slow.. and so on. ie: temperamental.

.

Hi LeoZ! Listen, your comment above -- no kidding -- sounds like a grinder problem to me. Changes in weather will affect the grind you need, but with a great grinder those adjustments become both trivial and automatic. With my Mini e, I'm making tiny adjustments all the time -- but they seem to be second nature by now, very easy and intuitive. With this grinder I have to say that my HX (La Valentina) is not temperamental at all, but rather remarkably consistent when compared to let's say my Gaggia Classic/Rocky combo. Why not order a Mazzer from a place with a decent returns policy and check things out with that? It might solve your "temperamental problem."

Alas I have no advice re: fresh roasted coffee. Just have to heat up that credit card and keep it coming!

RegulatorJohnson wrote:are these issues not the same for everyone? humidity changes requiring grind changes to keep same pour. doesnt matter if i have a brewtus or a silvia or a pulser, humidity will change the pour/grind correct?

i agree...handle side of PF. sounds like grind needs to be finer to me. i have an HX and i think it is great.

jon

if hx machines show obvious espresso flaws...

not machine flaws, but ESPRESSO flaws. meaning, not machine flaws, but flaws in the coffee, and how the machine accentuates those flaws, in the coffee.
is that more clear? i hope?

RegulatorJohnson wrote:are these issues not the same for everyone? humidity changes requiring grind changes to keep same pour. doesnt matter if i have a brewtus or a silvia or a pulser, humidity will change the pour/grind correct?

i agree...handle side of PF. sounds like grind needs to be finer to me. i have an HX and i think it is great.

jon

yes, im sure they are. im not questioning the fact that they are there, im questioning the WHY. WHERE does the pickiness come from?

LeoZ wrote:yes, im sure they are. im not questioning the fact that they are there, im questioning the WHY. WHERE does the pickiness come from?

from the tendency for ground coffee to absorb or give off water is my first guess.

you grind those beans and depending on the humidity they will absorb moisture from the air or if its dry they will dry out.

maybe when its a bit wetter the coffee will stick together easier on the tamp and tend to make it need a coarser grind on humid days.

on dry days the coffee drys out and doesnt pack together as tight requiring a finer grind.

this is just speculation.

inst this is one reason why you grind just before you brew. to minimize the affect air has on the coffee be it, humidity or oxidation of the delicate flavors.

jon

randomperson wrote:Hi LeoZ! Listen, your comment above -- no kidding -- sounds like a grinder problem to me. Changes in weather will affect the grind you need, but with a great grinder those adjustments become both trivial and automatic. With my Mini e, I'm making tiny adjustments all the time -- but they seem to be second nature by now, very easy and intuitive. With this grinder I have to say that my HX (La Valentina) is not temperamental at all, but rather remarkably consistent when compared to let's say my Gaggia Classic/Rocky combo. Why not order a Mazzer from a place with a decent returns policy and check things out with that? It might solve your "temperamental problem."

Alas I have no advice re: fresh roasted coffee. Just have to heat up that credit card and keep it coming!

im sure youre right.. just going to be a tough sell to my wife.
went from a tranquilo to a QM stepless, and i guess it isnt cutting it either.
just dropped a LOT of money on hardwood flooring for my house, so a grinder would be great, but ill have to hope for some luck on the cg.com buy/sell forum, for now :/
thx for the help..

RegulatorJohnson wrote:from the tendency for ground coffee to absorb or give off water is my first guess.

you grind those beans and depending on the humidity they will absorb moisture from the air or if its dry they will dry out.

maybe when its a bit wetter the coffee will stick together easier on the tamp and tend to make it need a coarser grind on humid days.

on dry days the coffee drys out and doesnt pack together as tight requiring a finer grind.

this is just speculation.

inst this is one reason why you grind just before you brew. to minimize the affect air has on the coffee be it, humidity or oxidation of the delicate flavors.

jon

i understand the science behind the coffee. i dont understand why the particular type of machine, an hx, accentuates this.
if i use a superauto, or an s1, it will produce a 2oz shot in 25secs, no matter what. right?