So I ordered their Beta Pre-Production for espresso machines. I tested the distilled water I bought just to make sure. With a TDS meter it meassured ZERO and with an API GH/KH test kit it only took one drop to change color. So GH/KH are somewhere between ZERO to 17.9ppm. So yeah, it is properly distilled water. Next, I dissolved one capsule with one gallon of the distilled water. The TDS meter tested 141 which I believe is close to the recommended number by the SCAA, but the GH(general hardness) took 9 DROPS to change color so that equals to 161.1ppm. I tested a second time and it was the same. Espresso may taste amazing, but isn't that water way too hard for an espresso machine?

check carbonate hardness.

KH=Carbonate Hardness or Alkalinity. I checked it. It was 4 drops or 71.6ppm.

That's the much more important number - my machine recommends under 70ppm, so that's pretty good. Carbonate hardness (alkalinity) is what causes scale generally.

Fausto wrote:Carbonate hardness (alkalinity) is what causes scale generally.

I think some terminology ambiguity may be causing a little confusion here.

Alkalinity, which many (including the test kits) call KH, and which some call 'carbonate hardness' does not necessarily cause scale. It may be primarily due to sodium and/or potassium carbonates which are very soluble and non-scaling.

The other definition of carbonate hardness (preferable in my opinion) is that it refers to the amount of calcium and/or magnesium carbonates in the water. This is roughly the same thing as 'temporary hardness' and is scale producing. But this is not directly measured by drop titration test kits.

In natural waters, you can roughly estimate the carbonate hardness (aka temporary hardness) -- it is roughly equal to either the total hardness or the total alkalinity, whichever one is the lesser. In formulated waters like TWW that add things like calcium citrate, I'm not sure this rule holds very well.

Also, hard scale is primarily caused by calcium carbonate, so if your hardness is due to magnesium, it should be much less scale-prone. (The TWW is high in magnesium.)

* Both the current Wikipedia and the first edition Water for Coffee book tend to use the term 'carbonate hardness' as synonymous to carbonate alkalinity and KH. The water literature from SCAE, Pentair, Hach all use a different definition of 'carbonate hardness' that defines it as a measure of calcium and magnesium carbonates.

I appreciate the responses, but I am still not clear. Is the API GH/KH test not accurate enough to know? I use Crystal Geyser from the Norman, AZ soource. With the API GH/KH test I get a GH of 89.5ppm and a KH of 71.6ppm. In the past this has resulted in scale in the group mushroom in only one month. Not a lot of scale though. I use a water softener pouch that I drop in the water tank. This drops the GH to 53.7ppm, but the KH remains unchange which is expected since it is only a softener. This results in no scale.

I don't know what is in the capsules, but it isn't calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate is only slightly soluble in water - which is the whole reason it scales!

It would be nice if they disclosed the contents of the vials. I would guess it is one of the recipes for water using sodium bicarbonate and magnesium sulphate. ( ie 70/30 water frequently discussed on H-B).

Cirqua (now known as Global Customized Waters) used to sell kits with A and B ampoules to mix into water. They were blends of calcium chloride, sodium bicarbonate and potassium bicarbonate. This is their basic process for their commercial systems as well. The parts are concentrated liquids that are kept separate until mixed into a larger volume of pure water because the calcium would precipitate out if mixed in high concentration form. The downside is that all the calcium came with a dose of chloride, which isn't the friendliest thing in an espresso water blend either, especially for stainless steel.

You TDS Meter is in reality a conductivity meter. It's just measuring the resistance of whatever it is dipped into. The resistivity of water is *HIGHLY* influenced by temperature, as well as minerals. So make sure your sample is in the correct temperature range your meter is designed to work in, usually something around 25C (77f).

If you wanted to create calcium carbonate hardness in water, you could start with RO or distilled water and carbonate it in a Soda-Stream device and add an excess of calcium carbonate. Let it chill over night tightly capped and agitate occasionally. This will create an aqueous solution of calcium bicarbonate as it reacts with the carbonic acid from the carbon dioxide in the water. Or you can start with bottled seltzer water ( no added minerals) or club soda (with some added minerals ) and add the calcium carbonate. Just let it dissolve into the cold carbonated water and then let anything that didn't dissolve settle to the bottom. Mix this concentrated calcium bicarbonate solution with more RO or distilled water to reach the desired hardness level.

F1 wrote:I appreciate the responses, but I am still not clear. Is the API GH/KH test not accurate enough to know?

I think the API kits are good enough for coffee water purposes. It doesn't differentiate Ca hardness from Mg hardness, but you can play it safe and assume that it's all calcium hardness, and that will tend to overestimate the potential for scaling.

You can increase the precision a little by using larger water samples. With 5 ml water sample, each drop corresponds to 1 German degree (17.9 ppm CaCO3 equivalent) , but with a 10ml water sample each drop corresponds to 0.5 German degree ( 8.95 ppm CaCO3 equivalent). The API kit KH test is a test for total alkalinity.

F1 wrote: I use Crystal Geyser from the Norman, AZ soource. With the API GH/KH test I get a GH of 89.5ppm and a KH of 71.6ppm. In the past this has resulted in scale in the group mushroom in only one month. Not a lot of scale though. I use a water softener pouch that I drop in the water tank. This drops the GH to 53.7ppm, but the KH remains unchange which is expected since it is only a softener. This results in no scale.

Your experience with the Crystal Geyser makes total sense. Your softener pouch converted about 30-40 ppm of calcium and/or magnesium carbonates to an equivalent amount of sodium bicarbonate, reducing the tendency to scale but keeping the alkalinity the same.

nuketopia wrote:It would be nice if they disclosed the contents of the vials. I would guess it is one of the recipes for water using sodium bicarbonate and magnesium sulphate.

They do, at least for us on HB. See Taylor Minor's post here: Third Wave Water

1050mg Magnesium Sulfate, 300mg Calcium Citrate and 150mg Potassium Bicarbonate.

That's for their Beta (pre-production) espresso machine formula, which may be subject to change. That formula should produce a bicarbonate alkalinity of about 20 ppm, a calcium hardness of about 48 ppm, and a total hardness of about 154ppm (all in CaCO3 equivalents.) The citrate ion might be doing something to increase the total alkalinity to the 35 ppm level that Taylor claims in the above post.

nuketopia wrote:I don't know what is in the capsules, but it isn't calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate is only slightly soluble in water - which is the whole reason it scales!

It would be nice if they disclosed the contents of the vials. I would guess it is one of the recipes for water using sodium bicarbonate and magnesium sulphate. ( ie 70/30 water frequently discussed on H-B).

Cirqua (now known as Global Customized Waters) used to sell kits with A and B ampoules to mix into water. They were blends of calcium chloride, sodium bicarbonate and potassium bicarbonate. This is their basic process for their commercial systems as well. The parts are concentrated liquids that are kept separate until mixed into a larger volume of pure water because the calcium would precipitate out if mixed in high concentration form. The downside is that all the calcium came with a dose of chloride, which isn't the friendliest thing in an espresso water blend either, especially for stainless steel.

You TDS Meter is in reality a conductivity meter. It's just measuring the resistance of whatever it is dipped into. The resistivity of water is *HIGHLY* influenced by temperature, as well as minerals. So make sure your sample is in the correct temperature range your meter is designed to work in, usually something around 25C (77f).

If you wanted to create calcium carbonate hardness in water, you could start with RO or distilled water and carbonate it in a Soda-Stream device and add an excess of calcium carbonate. Let it chill over night tightly capped and agitate occasionally. This will create an aqueous solution of calcium bicarbonate as it reacts with the carbonic acid from the carbon dioxide in the water. Or you can start with bottled seltzer water ( no added minerals) or club soda (with some added minerals ) and add the calcium carbonate. Just let it dissolve into the cold carbonated water and then let anything that didn't dissolve settle to the bottom. Mix this concentrated calcium bicarbonate solution with more RO or distilled water to reach the desired hardness level.

They have disclosed the contents of the package in the 3rd wave water thread.

1050mg Magnesium Sulfate, 300mg Calcium Citrate and 150mg Potassium Bicarbonate.

1050mg Magnesium Sulfate, 300mg Calcium Citrate and 150mg Potassium Bicarbonate.

Will those numbers result in any chance of scale?