zin1953 wrote:I readily admit that someone who wants to simply "push-and go" is better served (indeed much better served) by a DB than a superauto or a Nespresso®.

If you think about it, pressure and temperature are already what you would call "super-automatic" on most semi-auto machines. You have no "on the fly" control of these variables during the shot.

Having a custom tailored temp and pressure profile for each bean would be like having "electronic contols" on your camera. Of course you can always turn it off so in no way would it be limiting. These controls were shunned by the traditional photographers as well when they first came out, but can you imagine buying a camera these days with only manual shutterspeed and aperature control?

In this day of age it's ridiculous that there is almost no electronic feedback and control in the espresso brewing process.

Endo wrote: But as long as we hold onto outdated ideas like the E-61 and HX, this advancement will never happen.

Endo, you know Cafe Myriade probably, tell me why the owner (CNBC finalist) went from working on the likes of an FB70, a GB-5, and a Synesso to opening his own cafe and going with an E61 HX? Probably his partner (Scott Rao) influenced him in the wrong direction you would say? Just an observation...

Not sure. Perhaps they were just going for a certain look for the cafe. The Mirage Veloce is one sexy machine and fits in well in a small cozy cafe.

The Synesso is more square and "Utilitarian" looking. It looks great in the "modern styled" bistro like Veritas where he used to work.

I may be wrong, but I think I remember overhearing that the Veloce wasn't their first choice.

I was back at Veritas and got a shot pulled by a kid with 4 days experience. To my total surprise, the shot was almost perfect (damn him). I blame the Synesso.

Hey, one other thing, I noticed every single 3rd wave cafe in Montreal is now running Anfim Super Caimano grinders. Kinda wish I had another choice just for some variety.

Endo wrote:Hey, one other thing, I noticed every single 3rd wave cafe in Montreal is now running Anfim Super Caimano grinders. Kinda wish I had another choice just for some variety.

Off topic, but I agree with you there, not a single conical in sight (or that I know of at least).

Endo wrote:Having a custom tailored temp and pressure profile for each bean would be like having "electronic contols" on your camera.

No, it isn't. It would be more like (IMHO) having electronic controls on your wine cellar, telling you that Cabernet Sauvignon is ready in 5 years, 4 months and 23 days . . . and then unlocking that bottle from its pre-programmed spot on the rack -- without taking into account the variation in vintages; without taking into account "California" is sub-divided into a myriad of smaller regions that can vary wildly from one another; and without taking into account that this Napa Valley winemaker specializes in producing Cabernets that need time to age, whereas that Napa Valley winemaker focuses on making wines that need very little age . . .

In that scenario, having a pre-programmed "profile" for "Napa Valley Cabernet" would be as useless as having one for "California Cabernet" . . .

Regardless of the time of day, the year, or the geographic location, taking a landscape picture focused out to ∞ in x amount of ambient light requires y shutter speed in a digital camera, or z at ISO ____; whereas at x-2 ambient light, the camera's programming says the flash is required. That will be a consistent requirement that, yes, can be overridden by the operator (hopefully with sufficient knowledge to do so in such a manner as to improve the quality of the picture!). Using a telephoto lens from the sidelines of a football match requires a different set of programming, but again: light and shutter speed can be programmed in with a high expectation of quality.

Sorry. I am not trying to belabor the point, but I don't see any possibilities for doing this based upon the vagaries of Nature.

A portion of the problems I see could potentially be eliminated if one limited the programing to single-origin coffees programmed by the estate's name, rather than merely saying "Brazil," "Columbia," or "Yemen" (in other words, standardizing the naming of origin -- like the French appellation d'origine contrôlée system) Part of the problems might be handled if one can program not only the roast date (in terms of days after roast -- but how does one tell the programming that the beans have been in the freezer for two weeks as opposed to sitting on the shelf at *$ for weeks?), but also the roast level (and again, standardization is crucial). But I cannot see how you deal with the "vintage" differences, or beans that are blends . . .

Cheers,
Jason

miKe mcKoffee wrote:If I understand correctly you'd rather miss shot temp by up to ± 3 degrees (degress f I hope) than have a temp stable machine with a relatively narrow temp range? (Narrow temp range means to me without adjusting boiler - be it via temp control or pressure - for a different narrow range) Or did you mean shot temp vary ± 3 degrees intra shot?

If the former I'd definitely disagree as being acceptable, for me. As much as 6 degree inter target shot temp variance would oft as not result in huge results differences in the cup. Montrous shot inconsistency.

You understand me correctly, Mike. But "monstrous shot inconsistency" is not necessarily the result of a machine's ability merely to "bracket" a target temp within 2 or 3 degrees F. If the "wandering" or bracketing is consistent, not erratic -- if the time-weighted average temperature of the extraction is the same -- then there would be reproducibility from shot to shot.

Jason, I hear what your saying, but I think we're focusing too much on the "one button for each origin bean" aspect.

What I meant to describe was simply a way to design and store custom pressure and temperature profiles (preset or custom) and the barista able to replay them at any time to get a desired effect.

Right now we must use a paddle wheel to manually control the pressure. This pressure could easily be automated and controlled.

The initial brew boiler temperature can be preset, but the temperature profile simply "is what it is" depending what machine you bought. I often think of HX like taking a sip through garden hose in summer and having to wait 1 minute for it to cool down.

If we take this "garden hose" analogy, one could imagine the water used during a shot shot like a bunch of water stored in a long metal tube. You should be able to heat this tube at the middle and at both ends to get almost any temperature profile you like.

zin1953 wrote:Either Chris made them up, or he's basing it upon his vast experience -- oh, wait . . .

* * * * *

Chris you do have a lot of experience, but making up numbers doesn't help you . . .

Perhaps I need in the future to explain what "IMHO" means on the internet?

Marshall wrote:Yes, James, but, in the small pointy-end of the stick world that most of us inhabit, we have solved the problem of consistently good coffee. We are now onto better and best coffee and just plain experimenting with different parameters to see how they change the cup.

Anyone who says that they have "solved the problem of consistently good coffee" is (IMHO - which means "in my humble opinion") smoking crack.

Endo wrote:In other words, I'm actually sure the shot temperature and pressure should NOT be flat.

Really?
Based on intuition or is there something you can share with us to back up some a conclusive answer to a question that has been being asked in the coffee world for well more than a decade now?