Ken,

my comment was kind of a joke for Endo.. which as you, will defend vibe pumps to the end...
but if want to keep the "vibe vs rotary" check this thread http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-ma ... 10792.html

personally after having few of both pumps prefer the rotary..
and never had a DB, but even after this long debate I find NO reason for one... my SanRemo Capri HX machine is making an excellent job for me..



Ohh,
Peugeot WON the 24hours of LeMans, 1st and 2nd
Audi 3th.. I was 3 hours short of watching the finish live. : (
http://news-images.caradisiac.com/IMG/j ... fap_11.jpg
908 HDi (the D is for Diesel :O )

Subjective preferences aside (and those can be debated to death) neither HX or DB is better in all cases. Until one takes the hill (in taste) I'll resort to making "terrible" espresso on my antiquated e61 vibe HX.

Let this dead horse lie, its starting to stink.

King Seven wrote:While I won't disagree with the impact that brewing temperature has on espresso, in the big wide world of espresso brewing temperature is usually very low down on the list of what is wrong with any given espresso that you may be drinking.

I think you've inverted things. All else being equal (i.e. freshness, dose, grind) temperature can often be high or highest on the list of what was right -- i.e. especially good -- about an espresso.

King Seven wrote:Temperature control was another weapon in the espresso machine arms race, but now that stable brew temps are reasonably common, good espresso has not become proportionately more available.

Again, there is no need to reduce "temperature control" to "temperature stability". I'd rather have a machine whose temperature could be set over a wide range, even if the temperature wandered ± 2 or 3 degrees from target, than a machine that offered rock-steady temperature but a relatively narrow range.

Gus wrote:If one design were categorically better than the other, after 30 years in a shared market, there would only be one type of espresso machine.

If the costs were the same.

King Seven wrote:I should just add that dual boilers do encourage like temperature stability - implying flatline brew profiles are superior.

I hope I wasn't implying that. I actually have no idea whether flat line is superior or if one is superior for all coffees. But I am a very big fan of predictability.

I like the idea of what Greg Scace calls "walk up coffee." Once you set the machine the way you like it, you don't have to think about it (until you change coffees).

Endo wrote:How would the perfect machine work? You'd enter the coffee name and roast date and the machine would profile the temperature and pressure to suit.

A super superautomatic? (Superduperautomatic?)

Clearly this would useless, as your raw material (the coffee beans themselves) is an agricultural product and will in fact vary from year to year. So even if entering the roast date implies some sort of "pre-programmed fine tuning" to account for the age of the beans after roasting, it would not be able to adjust for the quality of the crop produced in 2013 as opposed to that in 2014, let alone the variations in roasting techniques. Additionally, the beans labeled "Mocha Java" or "French Roast" from (e.g.) Starbucks (I know, I know -- this presumes you even HAVE a roast date from *$!) might be a very different blend than the Mocha Java or French Roast one would get from (e.g.) Batdorf & Bronson or Gimme! or Peet's or Stumptown or . . . you get the idea.

Endo wrote:But as long as we hold onto outdated ideas like the E-61 and HX, this advancement will never happen.

Given that I cannot conceive a way this "advancement" could even take place, my final point may be a moot one, but I've yet to see any evidence (nor, more importantly, taste any consistent "distinction") that leads me to concur that an HX is an inferior design lacking in its abilities to produce a superior shot in the cup.

The taste of what is ultimately in the cup is the deciding factor, and I readily admit that someone who wants to simply "push-and go" is better served (indeed much better served) by a DB than a superauto or a Nespresso®.

YMMV.

Cheers,
Jason

That is exactly what I want, walk up coffee. I didn't know someone had already coined a term. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a super auto.

As impressive as coffee gear is in appearance and as fun as it is to use, for my money I want gear that will get out of the way and let me make great coffee time and time again. If there is something off in the cup I would prefer to either blame myself, or make a single adjustment and proceed with making great coffee. I would rather not have to try and make an adjustment with each shot I pull. This is the usage style I desire and is the reason I chose a DB over an HX.

In the end this hobby is about great coffee. When it comes to enjoying espresso, I do not believe my taste perception could tell the difference between great espresso made from an HX or a DB. Even if I could tell the difference as long as it was great espresso I would not care. When it comes to me pulling the shots I believe my desired usage reveals a definite difference and that is why I chose a DB.

Both designs are capable of producing great espresso. When considering which one is right for you, desired usage should be the determining factor. Instead of discussing which design is better than the other, we should be discussing what the average user experience is when you own one or the other, or both.

What is temperature management like for a 1.7 liter boiler HX machine with an (n) sized HX tube and a 1400W element, or a 2, 3, or 5 liter HX. Or, is there a difference between using a vertical or horizontal boiler in an HX machine. Or possibly how is a DB with a 1.7 liter brew boiler and matching steam boiler and 1000W elements different from a machine with a .8 liter brew boiler with a 800W element, and a 1.8 liter steam boiler with a 1200W element. How does performance change with a change in amperage? What is different about using a DB with a PID as opposed to one with a tight thermostat delta? How useful is it to be able to turn off the steam boiler in a DB?

These are differences that will give a noticeable impact to the end user. The gear is a means to an end. The important thing is to understand each design and using that understanding to decide which one better fits your desired usage.

Sure this is all covered if you read all of the reviews, but it is still fun to talk about.

timo888 wrote:Again, there is no need to reduce "temperature control" to "temperature stability". I'd rather have a machine whose temperature could be set over a wide range, even if the temperature wandered ± 2 or 3 degrees from target, than a machine that offered rock-steady temperature but a relatively narrow range.

If I understand correctly you'd rather miss shot temp by up to ± 3 degrees (degress f I hope) than have a temp stable machine with a relatively narrow temp range? (Narrow temp range means to me without adjusting boiler - be it via temp control or pressure - for a different narrow range) Or did you mean shot temp vary ± 3 degrees intra shot?

If the former I'd definitely disagree as being acceptable, for me. As much as 6 degree inter target shot temp variance would oft as not result in huge results differences in the cup. Montrous shot inconsistency.

If the later sounds like the HX hump vs flat temp shot or declining temp or even increasing temp debates...

I use both HX and DB virtually every day of the week. (Bricoletta at home and PID'd LM Linea at the cafe) Both capable of excellent shots with usually ± 0.5f inter shot temp variance and rather flat shot temp. HX hump temp profile isn't a given, depends on the HX and some HX machines depends on the surf method as is the case with the Bric'. My surf with flush-n-go produces a relatively flat profiled shot, much akin to the Linea.

HB wrote:Vibe pumps aren't noisy, it's the casing - the Maximatic may be nosier than a rotary pump, but I would need a sound meter to confirm. It makes less noise than my electric razor, demonstrating that vibratory pumps don't have to be noisy if their vibration is properly isolated

Sounds like you need a new electric razor.

ken