Ken,

my comment was kind of a joke for Endo.. which as you, will defend vibe pumps to the end...
but if want to keep the "vibe vs rotary" check this thread http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-ma ... 10792.html

personally after having few of both pumps prefer the rotary..
and never had a DB, but even after this long debate I find NO reason for one... my SanRemo Capri HX machine is making an excellent job for me..



Ohh,
Peugeot WON the 24hours of LeMans, 1st and 2nd
Audi 3th.. I was 3 hours short of watching the finish live. : (
http://news-images.caradisiac.com/IMG/j ... fap_11.jpg
908 HDi (the D is for Diesel :O )

Subjective preferences aside (and those can be debated to death) neither HX or DB is better in all cases. Until one takes the hill (in taste) I'll resort to making "terrible" espresso on my antiquated e61 vibe HX.

Let this dead horse lie, its starting to stink.

King Seven wrote:While I won't disagree with the impact that brewing temperature has on espresso, in the big wide world of espresso brewing temperature is usually very low down on the list of what is wrong with any given espresso that you may be drinking.

I think you've inverted things. All else being equal (i.e. freshness, dose, grind) temperature can often be high or highest on the list of what was right -- i.e. especially good -- about an espresso.

King Seven wrote:Temperature control was another weapon in the espresso machine arms race, but now that stable brew temps are reasonably common, good espresso has not become proportionately more available.

Again, there is no need to reduce "temperature control" to "temperature stability". I'd rather have a machine whose temperature could be set over a wide range, even if the temperature wandered ± 2 or 3 degrees from target, than a machine that offered rock-steady temperature but a relatively narrow range.

Gus wrote:If one design were categorically better than the other, after 30 years in a shared market, there would only be one type of espresso machine.

If the costs were the same.

King Seven wrote:I should just add that dual boilers do encourage like temperature stability - implying flatline brew profiles are superior.

I hope I wasn't implying that. I actually have no idea whether flat line is superior or if one is superior for all coffees. But I am a very big fan of predictability.

I like the idea of what Greg Scace calls "walk up coffee." Once you set the machine the way you like it, you don't have to think about it (until you change coffees).

That is exactly what I want, walk up coffee. I didn't know someone had already coined a term. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a super auto.

As impressive as coffee gear is in appearance and as fun as it is to use, for my money I want gear that will get out of the way and let me make great coffee time and time again. If there is something off in the cup I would prefer to either blame myself, or make a single adjustment and proceed with making great coffee. I would rather not have to try and make an adjustment with each shot I pull. This is the usage style I desire and is the reason I chose a DB over an HX.

In the end this hobby is about great coffee. When it comes to enjoying espresso, I do not believe my taste perception could tell the difference between great espresso made from an HX or a DB. Even if I could tell the difference as long as it was great espresso I would not care. When it comes to me pulling the shots I believe my desired usage reveals a definite difference and that is why I chose a DB.

Both designs are capable of producing great espresso. When considering which one is right for you, desired usage should be the determining factor. Instead of discussing which design is better than the other, we should be discussing what the average user experience is when you own one or the other, or both.

What is temperature management like for a 1.7 liter boiler HX machine with an (n) sized HX tube and a 1400W element, or a 2, 3, or 5 liter HX. Or, is there a difference between using a vertical or horizontal boiler in an HX machine. Or possibly how is a DB with a 1.7 liter brew boiler and matching steam boiler and 1000W elements different from a machine with a .8 liter brew boiler with a 800W element, and a 1.8 liter steam boiler with a 1200W element. How does performance change with a change in amperage? What is different about using a DB with a PID as opposed to one with a tight thermostat delta? How useful is it to be able to turn off the steam boiler in a DB?

These are differences that will give a noticeable impact to the end user. The gear is a means to an end. The important thing is to understand each design and using that understanding to decide which one better fits your desired usage.

Sure this is all covered if you read all of the reviews, but it is still fun to talk about.

timo888 wrote:Again, there is no need to reduce "temperature control" to "temperature stability". I'd rather have a machine whose temperature could be set over a wide range, even if the temperature wandered ± 2 or 3 degrees from target, than a machine that offered rock-steady temperature but a relatively narrow range.

If I understand correctly you'd rather miss shot temp by up to ± 3 degrees (degress f I hope) than have a temp stable machine with a relatively narrow temp range? (Narrow temp range means to me without adjusting boiler - be it via temp control or pressure - for a different narrow range) Or did you mean shot temp vary ± 3 degrees intra shot?

If the former I'd definitely disagree as being acceptable, for me. As much as 6 degree inter target shot temp variance would oft as not result in huge results differences in the cup. Montrous shot inconsistency.

If the later sounds like the HX hump vs flat temp shot or declining temp or even increasing temp debates...

I use both HX and DB virtually every day of the week. (Bricoletta at home and PID'd LM Linea at the cafe) Both capable of excellent shots with usually ± 0.5f inter shot temp variance and rather flat shot temp. HX hump temp profile isn't a given, depends on the HX and some HX machines depends on the surf method as is the case with the Bric'. My surf with flush-n-go produces a relatively flat profiled shot, much akin to the Linea.

Ken Fox wrote:There is only one single advantage that rotary pumps have over vibe pumps, and that is that it is easier to make a machine that is quiet with a rotary pump, than it is with a vibe pump.

On a related note, one of our new sponsors is Olympic Express and their US importer, Swiss Coffee Products. Why am I bothering you with this tidbit, other than the excuse to plug the wares? Well, I took this opportunity to ask them for a loaner Olympia Maximatic to get to know their product line better. It's an HX espresso machine similar in footprint to their Olympia Cremina and sports a vibratory pump.

After a few days of using it, two noteworthy points related to this thread come to mind:

• Vibe pumps aren't noisy, it's the casing - the Maximatic may be nosier than a rotary pump, but I would need a sound meter to confirm. It makes less noise than my electric razor, demonstrating that vibratory pumps don't have to be noisy if their vibration is properly isolated
• HX rules of engagement vary dramatically - similar to the Elektra Semiautomatica and the Gaggia Achille, the Olympia Maximatic has no thermal memory. So although you do have to flush, it's the same whether the last shot was 2 minutes, 5 minutes, or 20 minutes ago.

That said, Timo raised a good point earlier in this thread: No matter how simple the HX's flush routine, it won't have the same range as twiddling a dial on a double boiler. If you want to pull shots at 185F one day and 203F the next, an HX espresso machine isn't a good fit. They're quite capable within a narrow range of 4-6 degrees F, especially for "on the fly" within that range, but they're not well suited to the wide range of brew temperatures double boilers can deliver with ease (*).

Marshall wrote:But [the Appia] is very different in design, performance and cost from the Aurelia, which is almost in a class by itself among HX machines.

Indeed, I've been hoping that designs similar to the Aurelia would trickle down to the 1 groups. I like the idea of a no flush, easily adjustable HX espresso. That is, all the convenience of a double boiler without the extra cost.

(*) Yes, I am aware that some HX owners have added PIDs for the purpose of extending the brew temperature range and simplifying the flush routine. My point above speaks to the typical unmodified HX espresso machine available on today's market.

zin1953 wrote:I readily admit that someone who wants to simply "push-and go" is better served (indeed much better served) by a DB than a superauto or a Nespresso®.

If you think about it, pressure and temperature are already what you would call "super-automatic" on most semi-auto machines. You have no "on the fly" control of these variables during the shot.

Having a custom tailored temp and pressure profile for each bean would be like having "electronic contols" on your camera. Of course you can always turn it off so in no way would it be limiting. These controls were shunned by the traditional photographers as well when they first came out, but can you imagine buying a camera these days with only manual shutterspeed and aperature control?

In this day of age it's ridiculous that there is almost no electronic feedback and control in the espresso brewing process.

Endo wrote: But as long as we hold onto outdated ideas like the E-61 and HX, this advancement will never happen.

Endo, you know Cafe Myriade probably, tell me why the owner (CNBC finalist) went from working on the likes of an FB70, a GB-5, and a Synesso to opening his own cafe and going with an E61 HX? Probably his partner (Scott Rao) influenced him in the wrong direction you would say? Just an observation...

Not sure. Perhaps they were just going for a certain look for the cafe. The Mirage Veloce is one sexy machine and fits in well in a small cozy cafe.

The Synesso is more square and "Utilitarian" looking. It looks great in the "modern styled" bistro like Veritas where he used to work.

I may be wrong, but I think I remember overhearing that the Veloce wasn't their first choice.

I was back at Veritas and got a shot pulled by a kid with 4 days experience. To my total surprise, the shot was almost perfect (damn him). I blame the Synesso.

Hey, one other thing, I noticed every single 3rd wave cafe in Montreal is now running Anfim Super Caimano grinders. Kinda wish I had another choice just for some variety.

Endo wrote:Hey, one other thing, I noticed every single 3rd wave cafe in Montreal is now running Anfim Super Caimano grinders. Kinda wish I had another choice just for some variety.

Off topic, but I agree with you there, not a single conical in sight (or that I know of at least).

miKe mcKoffee wrote:If I understand correctly you'd rather miss shot temp by up to ± 3 degrees (degress f I hope) than have a temp stable machine with a relatively narrow temp range? (Narrow temp range means to me without adjusting boiler - be it via temp control or pressure - for a different narrow range) Or did you mean shot temp vary ± 3 degrees intra shot?

If the former I'd definitely disagree as being acceptable, for me. As much as 6 degree inter target shot temp variance would oft as not result in huge results differences in the cup. Montrous shot inconsistency.

You understand me correctly, Mike. But "monstrous shot inconsistency" is not necessarily the result of a machine's ability merely to "bracket" a target temp within 2 or 3 degrees F. If the "wandering" or bracketing is consistent, not erratic -- if the time-weighted average temperature of the extraction is the same -- then there would be reproducibility from shot to shot.

Jason, I hear what your saying, but I think we're focusing too much on the "one button for each origin bean" aspect.

What I meant to describe was simply a way to design and store custom pressure and temperature profiles (preset or custom) and the barista able to replay them at any time to get a desired effect.

Right now we must use a paddle wheel to manually control the pressure. This pressure could easily be automated and controlled.

The initial brew boiler temperature can be preset, but the temperature profile simply "is what it is" depending what machine you bought. I often think of HX like taking a sip through garden hose in summer and having to wait 1 minute for it to cool down.

If we take this "garden hose" analogy, one could imagine the water used during a shot shot like a bunch of water stored in a long metal tube. You should be able to heat this tube at the middle and at both ends to get almost any temperature profile you like.

zin1953 wrote:Either Chris made them up, or he's basing it upon his vast experience -- oh, wait . . .

* * * * *

Chris you do have a lot of experience, but making up numbers doesn't help you . . .

Perhaps I need in the future to explain what "IMHO" means on the internet?

Marshall wrote:Yes, James, but, in the small pointy-end of the stick world that most of us inhabit, we have solved the problem of consistently good coffee. We are now onto better and best coffee and just plain experimenting with different parameters to see how they change the cup.

Anyone who says that they have "solved the problem of consistently good coffee" is (IMHO - which means "in my humble opinion") smoking crack.

Endo wrote:In other words, I'm actually sure the shot temperature and pressure should NOT be flat.

Really?
Based on intuition or is there something you can share with us to back up some a conclusive answer to a question that has been being asked in the coffee world for well more than a decade now?