SNielsen wrote: Not sure if this could cause the relay to behave like that, but I will test and clean nevertheless.

I'm not sure either but why not temporarily "fool" the system into believing the tank is full and see whether that cures the chattering relay? You may need to do this anyway to operate the machine with the sheetmetal removed so do it before you start the machine up from cold.

edit - Yes, I am a Dad and hope that you and everyone else visiting these forums had an equally pleasant Father's Day.

So, I had some time last night to put my head into the machine again, and found that grounding the tank sensor prongs and contacts had no effect on the clicking relay. I grounded the bars, prongs, wire, etc., six different ways, and no change. Before that, I had checked the continuity of the prong to the connector at the relay, and it was sound. Likewise on the other side of the circuit - the ground contact of the opposite prong was good.

So, with the tank sensors testing OK, and the boiler sensor likewise, I'm left with the conclusion that I need a new Gicar box. I assume that separate relays are not available. Unless anyone has any other suggestions, I'm pretty much resigned to putting a new Gicar in. FWIW, here are the pics that Eric was looking for:

Thanks for the pics.

The top surface of the Gicar box looks like it saw a little heat?

New relays are available - FOR EXAMPLE - your RL2 which operates the fill solenoid and pump MAY BE a JQX-115F available here: http://www.futurlec.com/Relays/JQX-115F-09.shtml . Replacing relays requires a bit of soldering skill (I don't have it) but substantial $ could be saved.

If you ultimately decide on a new Gicar, have all the appropriate part numbers and pics at hand and try to make sure you are getting a direct replacement. This could be a little difficult considering the machine's age.

edit - what is the serial number of your Giotto?

Hi Eric,

Yeah, the top of the Gicar box looks a bit toasted. Not sure why. We bought it as a used machine, about 2 years ago, and don't know the full history. Looks like an '03 model, judging by the serial number (20031105299), so it was in use for about 4 years before we got it.

Thanks for the link to the relay supplier. I'm OK at soldering big stuff (wires, plumbing...), but when it comes to circuit boards, that's a bit too fine for me. Don't have the dexterity and know-how to do a good job (the actual soldering part is not bad, it's getting rid of the old solder and opening up the holes in the circuit board for the new pins that's tricky for me....that, and I've overheated a board or two.... ). At this point, I don't have the time to fuss with it, nor the confidence that I will actually be able to get it working again. Gotta lump it and pay the bucks, it seems.....sigh....

I just called Faema in Toronto, where the Giotto originally came from. They will install a new Gicar for $300, and for an extra $130 they will fully test the machine and inspect to see if everything else is OK. They have several different models of Gicar in stock, so should have the right one. The service guy was impressed with my knowledge (grounding of sensors, relays clicking....), but I didn't tell him I learned it all here!

Thanks a ton for all your help. Much appreciated!

I am currently experiencing the same problem and Eric has been a HUGE help in trying to diagnose the problem. My machine reaches an overpressure situation when pulling a shot but not necessarily right away (usually about 6-10 before a problem).

I have the same Gicar as you and through some simple tests and inspections it appears that my RL1 is faulty. RL1 on my board closes when the machine is powered up but does not open and close with the pressure stat. I swapped the p-stat for a light switch and checked for relay operation (still no) and also measured the voltage on the heating element when the "p-stat" was on and off. When off, I was still reading between 5V and 12V on the leads when it should have been 0V (right?).

After much searching, I was able match RL1 (JQX-14FW-018-HS) with this:

http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=04M9461&_requestid=272245

I will be testing tonight, so I will let you know how things turn out. I hope my soldering skills are up to snuff! Also, I contacted Stephano and he was able to source a Giemme replacement controller used on the ECMs that is less expensive. PM or email me and I may be able to help you some more.

Cheers,

Matt

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the input on this. I'd gladly source out the relay and put it in myself, but, as I said, I'm not sure I'm up to the soldering task. If I had more time too, I might attempt it, but I travel a lot on business, and just don't have the time needed to sort this out right now. Personally, I'd prefer to repair it myself, as I enjoy the challenge and like doing the work. If I wasn't so busy, I'd probably give it a shot, and save some money too..... But dropping the Giotto off at Faema and having them take care of it is looking pretty good right now. Expensive, though....ouch.... Oh well, at least it's an excuse to visit downtown Toronto (great city!). And Faema has a really good restaurant/cafe on the main floor, in which a good lunch followed by a cappuccino will soothe the pain of the repair bill.

Good luck with your machine, and let me know the outcome.

And you're right, Eric is a great help. Very knowledgeable....Thanks Eric!

Svend

reno - this is the same issue i had. i took resistance and voltage readings across all points, and it appeared to be a growing issue. as heat affects one relay, it spreads to others shortly thereafter.

again, i swapped the gicar controller. there is always the simple solution, cycle the machine often and live with cool shots. i did that too, until the controller completely failed.

Leo -- Thanks for the insight. It does seem that the board overheats and causes problems throughout, so changing out RL1 didn't make a difference. On this last go, the machine overheated on the first shot. By the way, I got through about an ounce of my shot, Ristretto Roasters Ethiopian Harrar, pulled pretty tight and it was a gobs of dark chocolate with hints of sweet berry in the finish!

I think I've exhausted my electrical know-how and patience. Time for a new controller for me, too!

Cheers,

Matt

I have had a problem with over pressure several times with my Europiccola. I used descaler instead of vinegar, not letting it get to full pressure before running it threw. I have done this up to three times in a row before it returns to normal operation. It happens like clockwork if I put off cleaning the machine.

I doubt there is any scale in the machine anymore. I had it completely apart and descaled for a couple of days with citric acid solution. The boiler was nice and pretty when finished.

I discovered that I had my wiring for line and neutral reversed at the switch (I feel like such an a**) and rewired. Everything appeared to check out, so I fired up the machine and monitored the operation. I got through 3 shots with no problems and then tried two blind filter backflushes. The second caused the over-pressure situation, so I stopped the brew cycle before blowing the safety valve. I then pulled another real shot to be certain of the problem and experienced the same. In both over-pressure cases, I am able to immediately flush water through the group with no portafilter without problems.

So now I ask this: Do I have a possible leak in my HX system or possibly a faulty one-way valve and fill solenoid, which causes the boiler to fill and over-pressurize? Could the problem still be some sort of electrical issue on the board (over-heating), as Leo stated earlier?