Thanks for chiming in...

Short answer to both... reservoir sensor probe (screw) is clean... disconnecting it has the desired effect of disabling all of the relays (far as I can tell).... Disconnecting the boiler sensor (red wire) and grounding it has no effect..... RL3 keeps clacking away - occasionally it will stick but the boiler doesn't seem to be heating... suggesting that RL2 is either not closing or something wrong with the pstat/heater circuit.....


Long answer.....

I've traced a bit of this out...

RL3 -> FA6 - Only runs to the pour switch (then to the pump when the pour switch is activated)- doesn't make any sense that it would be energizing... - bouncing around 20VAC ....

RL2- one side runs to the pump through FA5 and the other side to the boiler fill switch via FA4 ... should be energized but its not... showing about 20v on FA5.. nothing on FA4

RL1 runs through FA3 to the transducer on the boiler (then to the pstat, then to the heater....)- it stays off as I think it should....

Now, for kicks, here's a few things I did:
1) I disconnected the pour switch from FA6.... made no difference....RL3 kept clicking away..
2) I disconnected the pump from FA5 and reconnected FA6- FA5 output dropped to 10VAC, FA6 remained the same.....RL3 kept clicking....
3) Disconnected FA3, FA4, FA5, FA6- same as #2 above....

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So, here's my thinking-
Regardless of what is hooked up on the relays, the only inputs are AC Voltage, Chassis Ground, reservoir level , and boiler level...

the state of the reservoir and boiler level should give 4 combinations for FA3-FA6....

Reservoir Empty (floating) -
A- Boiler Not below sensor- FA6, FA5, FA4 should be open FA3 should be energized (RL1 powered)
B- boiler below sensor - all relays should be open.
Reservoir Full-
A- Boiler below sensor- FA6 should be energized, FA5 and FA4 should be energized FA3 should be open (RL2 and RL3 powered)
B- Boiler not below sensor -FA6 should be energized - FA5 and FA4 should be open, FA3 should energized (RL1 powered)

Testing the inputs, gave me no difference on the outputs, regardless of whatever is connected or not connected on the outputs.... so
1- something is wrong with the Gicar.....
a- RL3 bouncing continuously is a problem
b- RL2 not energizing - is a problem....
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Next step would be to check the input to the relays in each of the different states to confirm they are being energized... therein lies the problem... checking the voltage on the opposite side of all of the relays, I'm getting 12V... on all of them.....

so what now? I'm this close to just buying a new Gicar but i'm digging the challenge of trying to resolve the problem...

Well... $300+ and a new Gicar fixed the problem - at least I have my machine back
Figuring over 5-6 years, I've pulled at least 6000 shots (probably more) - I'm not complaining....

... One of these days I'll set the old one up on a bench and pull the relays one by one to see where the problem is (if it is a relay)- will post some info on how I went about troubleshooting it and what types of voltages one should see at different locations....hopefully I'll get around to that before the new one goes

Thanks for the suggestions, was worth the effort if only to get a better hands on feeling of how the machine works..

I have replaced the JQX-115F-12 a couple months ago (october 09) from futurlec, it as failed again 2 weeks ago and I had a spare one that I have replaced. But I suspect that the relay is not as good quality as the original.

Anybody else replaced that relay and where you bought it? Im no electrical engeener but the one from futurlec is 8A while the original is 16A, might be the issue?

Thanks,
Eric

I would think it is definitely the issue. While you may not be an electrical engineer, you obviously have some of the necessary skill sets.

If it were me, I would give serious consideration to replacing that Gicar box with a current one, RL30/1E-2C/F, and letting the existing pstat control an SSR. This Gicar box is about as simple as it gets and simply controls the water level in the boiler. The only relay it has powers the fill solenoid and the pump when the level probe "says so".

Thanks,

I will certainly entertain to change the gicar to a newer version, however seems that there is alot less connector on that version than the original in my Giotto.

I didnt searched yet, but is there any direction how to switch to this model?

Thanks,
Eric

No, there is no step-by-step instruction. I should not have used the wording "newer version" but rather the simple version of the RL30 that controls boiler water level only. I happen to have two Gicar controls in two different machines that have the same model number that I quoted previously.

There is a wiring diagram of this simplified control on my crude FTP site below by sig.

Thanks erics,

I might just try to get a better quality/rating JQX-115F-12 and I think it should do the trick. Its the second one that I replace in that gicar and it went well again with the new one on the board, I guess if I can find a better quality and proper AMP rating it should last alot longer than this one.

So if you know, or somebody reading this know where to get one JQX-115F-12 16A, Im interested in it

In the Gicar I repaired the relay was made by Finder and I found it at Mag-Trol West, 909-465-5449, Mine was a 12 amp, P/N 44.62.9.024.0000, in stock for $6.50 each + $6 shipping. I believe I found them on the Finder web site.

I think I found a suitable substitute for the JQX-115F-012. My situation was similar, boiler wouldn't fire up. Resetting machine worked for a while, then nothing. Looked around the internet and found this nugget at Digi-key: OMRON G2RL-1A-E-DC12 // Digi-Key PN Z2924-ND. It's a SPST-NO PCB relay using the same footprint as the Hongfa relay. Futurlec has a two month back-order on this relay, so I started shopping around. The specs are almost identical (16A contacts, same coil current, same form factor relay). It's shipping from Minnesota to sunny SoCal, so we'll see how it works when it gets here. I'll let y'all know.

Hello All,
I do not normally post to boards, but I registered to be able to say <thank you> to Jimmy, bimmer, pssmith, and especially erics for giving the time to not only attempt to fix these Gicar boards but to also post your process and results, good or bad.
I wasn't brave enough to do so myself while I was mucking about, but after I suffered the same boiler shutoff, I replaced the R1 relay with the 12A unit [me- I used Futurlec--I waited] and was back in business.
The outfit that sold me the Giotto said the the diagnosis would be at least six weeks; new board, $250-300.
Anyway, I was extremely cautious...not forgetting boilers are dangerous, and mains voltage kills...but the careful review of the work by brave souls gone before me left the breadcrumbs to mark the path.
Again, thank you.
A disappointing design--that control board--but fortunately I think that the fix is better than the original equipment.

Best,

-marks