For exceptional espresso, you need professional equipment... or do you? - Page 3

Need help with equipment usage or want to share your latest discovery?
sashaman (original poster)
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#21: Post by sashaman (original poster) »

Thanks guys, appreciate your responses and learning from your experiences.

Alan Frew
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#22: Post by Alan Frew »

You DO need a professional quality grinder, but the machine not so much. "Professional" machines cover a wide spectrum, from the various CMA models to the tricked-out Slayers. A WBC champion and a titan-quality grinder can produce exceptional espresso on a domestic machine, I've been there when it's been happening.

No-one ever pays attention to the grinder lurking in the background.

Alan

time8theuniverse
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#23: Post by time8theuniverse »

For less than $700 I got a Bacchi AND a Pharos to give me exceptional espresso. As taste goes I have consistently better coffee at home than going to close-by commercial establishments. The limits are they only do home shots, I say 'That's hot' more than on a Expobar Office and if there was more than 2 people someone would be missing out. But taste wise I guess I'll die with the two pieces of equipment and still enjoy good coffee from them regularly.

I'm not a complete idiot (some bits are missing) and I have a strong base of coffee experience to draw on to fine tune the settings to get a great taste but for that price try it yourselves.

I want at least one commercial machine eventually for the convenience of consistency in multiple shots at once (that's why they're commercial).
Infinitely capable of being completely wrong.

malling
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#24: Post by malling »

Alan Agree

But do you honestly believe, people someday will understand, that it's allot better to get a new grinder rather then a new machine( junk not included).

I haven't Counted the amount of times I have seen a quality espresso machine accompanied with the cheapest crap that you possible Can get away with.

And then they wonder why they can't make decent espresso, heck some of Them even buy pre grounded coffee from the Best coffee shop around and still doesn't Seem to understand that they need a quality grinder, and that it's impossible to use pregrounded coffee unless you live next door.

So yes you need at least a commercial rated grinder, the esp. Machine is not that important to make excellent espresso. There is a reason why people Can make Impressive espresso on a machine like the Silvia if they have a good enough grinder.

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allon
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#25: Post by allon »

Let me flip the coin here...
Are there any commercial machines that would be considered on par with or inferior to the cup quality of midrange to high end consumer gear of the same basic design (HX, SBDU, DB; not looking to compare based on bells and whistles, only based on design and quality in the cup)?
What's the absolute worst you can do with a commercial machine, independent of the other 3 M's.
LMWDP #331

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Spitz.me
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#26: Post by Spitz.me »

To this day, I still wish I had never purchased a Vario and just went quality commercial grinder. Correct me if my feelings are wrong, but I feel like I'm missing out on some magical shots. lol The money spent on the Vario could have been put to even better use. This is why you should always consider where you may want to be in the future compared to where you are now. Because taking that incremental, possibly even lateral, step will just end up costing you more money in the long run.
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joatmon
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#27: Post by joatmon »

I know that the average shot on my 50 year old Lambro and K30 is something I could only dream of when I had Expobars, MCaLs, Creminas and the Mazzer Mini. I actually spend less time "geeking" that I did before but the coffee is much better. No disrespect to Cremina fans as I fully admit that I was the problem. But the Lambro and K30 deliver in spite of the barista, me.

Yes, I have no clue why that is. Forced to answer the query, I'd say it has something to do with the fact that commercial is designed with results ("the cup") in mind and anything that detracts from that will be eliminated. Consumer stuff, call it pro-sumer if it helps you reach for your wallet, is designed to move units, therefor attention is given to price, curb appeal, features and a eye to the competition and their content.

For exceptional espresso, you need professional equipment... or do you? I don't know about you, but for me, the answer is a resounding yes, because I value the Quality/Effort ratio.

joat

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Peppersass
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#28: Post by Peppersass »

Marshall wrote:You don't understand it because it isn't true. Good baristas make very fine espresso at home from very modest equipment all the time. Some of them have to. They are working baristas and can't afford anything like what people on this board consider "necessities."
True. I ran into one in at an upscale espresso bar in NYC a few years ago. They had a Robur and Linea, and were pulling Counter Culture Aficionado. The barista was very skilled and the drinks were fantastic (great latte art, too.) We got to chatting and he told me he uses a Silvia at home. He said it took a while to make the machine do what he wanted, but he felt good about the shots he can pull at home.

My theory is that his success was a reflection of the coffee he was using and his skill at pulling it.

But remember that even a bare-bones Silvia with a Baratza Vario is going to cost over $1,000. That's still a lot of money for someone working in a coffee shop, and I think even a really skilled professional barista might have difficulty pulling great shots with lesser equipment.

So why buy more expensive equipment? Cafes do it because the more expensive equipment is usually much more rugged, something needed for high-volume applications. For home baristas, it's two things: consistency and ease of use. Consistency is the hardest thing to achieve with espresso. You can't do it at all with an inferior grinder, like a whirly-blade or a grinder with very small burrs. The Baratza Vario, at a little over $400, is likely the cheapest grinder capable of producing a consistently good grind.

But if there aren't any glaring design flaws, if you have a good grinder you can probably coax good shots out of most prosumer semi-automatic espresso machines, even Silvia, which has a reputation (deserved) for being very hard to work with. As long as the pressure is reasonably consistent, and can be set into the right range (say, 7-11 BAR), and the temperature can be more-or-less predicted (i.e., through flushing and other "temperature dance" methods), you can make a good cup of espresso. It will probably be hard to do, and it will be challenging to do it consistently.

In contrast, expensive (large burr) grinders, like the Titan class, and expensive machines, like the $2,000+ double boiler machines, make it a lot easier to get consistently good shots and steamed microfoam. The grinders tend to produce the same result time-after-time, and the machines have consistent and predictable pressure and temperature profiles.

Ironically, as Jim Schulman has pointed out, it's much easier to learn to pull good shots on expensive equipment because any inconsistency is likely to be the result of technique, which can be corrected.

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jfrescki
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#29: Post by jfrescki »

Spitz.me wrote:To this day, I still wish I had never purchased a Vario and just went quality commercial grinder. Correct me if my feelings are wrong, but I feel like I'm missing out on some magical shots. lol
++1 :(.....And yet it'll be a long time before I jump to a conical, if ever. The Vario is just so practical for home use. And a conical is something to still look forward to anyway!
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uscfroadie
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#30: Post by uscfroadie »

jfrescki wrote:++1 :(.....And yet it'll be a long time before I jump to a conical, if ever. The Vario is just so practical for home use. And a conical is something to still look forward to anyway!
Or on the cheap you can get a Pharos and have the best of both worlds: Vario convenience when it matters and large-scale conical when you are trying to explore what is possible from the rest of your equipment (and your skill level).
Merle