For exceptional espresso, you need professional equipment... or do you? - Page 2

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Marshall
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#11: Post by Marshall »

mitch236 wrote:Is that aimed at me??? :lol:
No. Nicholas. Strada is the polar opposite of the Baby. See you in Portland, Nicholas!
Marshall
Los Angeles

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shadowfax
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#12: Post by shadowfax »

Marshall wrote:Mike Phillips with a Gaggia Baby vs. anyone on this board with a Strada. I know where my bet's going. :D
What is it with you and mincing words? I might be able to beat out a good with a handicap like that. I don't know, or care one whit. That's not what I said. USBC-winning barista on Gaggia Baby vs. the same barista on a Strada EP. Strada will win, with huge odds on one-off shot pairings and 100% odds on series of shots. End of story. I don't understand why you're taking this tack, but if you wish to, at least do us the courtesy of correct interpretations and stop muddying the waters.
Nicholas Lundgaard

sashaman (original poster)
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#13: Post by sashaman (original poster) »

Well, in actuality, using the example of a Gaggia Baby is a strawman. It is easy to see how a more expensive (but still consumer oriented) machine with better temp. control capabilities provides a more consistent temperature, which easily improves shot quality.

However, what about, say, a Breville Double Boiler vs. a Strada. The BDB has very accurate temperature control, programmable preinfusion, similar pressure profile of any semi-auto pump machine, standard 58 mm portafilter. Again, not talking about build quality, but what variables are present in a high end commercial machine that would allow a good barista to create a better shot than a BDB?

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Marshall
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#14: Post by Marshall »

shadowfax wrote: USBC-winning barista on Gaggia Baby vs. the same barista on a Strada EP. Strada will win....
I'm sure you're right, but your earlier post implied the machine was more important than the barista. This thread has, of course, become the latest sequel (#46?) of "What's more important to the shot, the hand or the machine?" :D
Marshall
Los Angeles

sashaman (original poster)
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#15: Post by sashaman (original poster) »

Marshall wrote:This thread has, of course, become the latest sequel (#46?) of "What's more important to the shot, the hand or the machine?"
Let me try to rephrase my question, because while yes, I've seen that "which of the 4Ms is most important" question many times, that's not quite what I was getting at.

As I understand it, an espresso machine is really only able to affect the quality of a shot by changing one of 3 variables:
  1. temperature
  2. pressure
  3. "flow characteristics"
Of course, this is somewhat of a simplification (e.g. pressure would include how preinfusion can be controlled, temperature would include the full temp graph), but not much. A mid-to-high end "prosumer" machine (think a decent E61 HX or double boiler) should have very good control over these variables: very accurate temperature, very accurate pressure, and pretty much the same flow characteristics as on a high end commercial machine.

Thus, for folks who feel that a commercial machine provides a "better" shot than a $1-2k prosumer machine, my question really has to do with HOW do you think it provides a better shot? Which of the above variables does a commercial machine do a better job of controlling? Or, is there something else I've left out of my 3 variables listed above.

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shadowfax
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#16: Post by shadowfax »

Marshall wrote:your earlier post implied the machine was more important than the barista. This thread has, of course, become the latest sequel (#46?) of "What's more important to the shot, the hand or the machine?" :D
Which one? I disagree that I implied that. The question of which is more important is not so interesting. The reality is that both good technique and good equipment are needed, regardless of which is most important. You won't be consistent at pulling good shots if you're missing either one.
sashaman wrote:Thus, for folks who feel that a commercial machine provides a "better" shot than a $1-2k prosumer machine, my question really has to do with HOW do you think it provides a better shot? Which of the above variables does a commercial machine do a better job of controlling? Or, is there something else I've left out of my 3 variables listed above.
It's not that it provides a 'better' shot. It's about how predictable the equipment is. There's also questions of forgiveness factor, the ability to use a wide range of coffees (for example, how well can machine x handle a light-roasted single-origin coffee?), dose ranges, etc. I don't think you could reduce a machine to a small number of features; there are a huge number of factors that coalesce to determine what a machine is and how it performs.
Nicholas Lundgaard

sashaman (original poster)
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#17: Post by sashaman (original poster) »

shadowfax wrote:there are a huge number of factors that coalesce to determine what a machine is and how it performs.
Thanks Nicholas, I totally agree. Usability features, build quality, beauty, and just the fact that you know you are using a precision engineered piece of equipment are all good reasons to me to look at a commercial machine. However, for any individual shot, let's look at some of the things you list:
shadowfax wrote:It's about how predictable the equipment is.
Totally agree. Again, though, a decent consumer machine should be capable of being very consistent when dealing with home user volumes. One of the things that got me thinking about this topic in the first place was Dennis' really informative temperature study of a CC1 on his blog: http://10000shots.com/post/16207350173/ ... e-profiles. As you can see, the CC1 has very good temperature stability. I know Breville DB users have reported excellent temperature reproducibility with their machines. What is the advantage of commercial machines here?
shadowfax wrote:There's also questions of forgiveness factor
Agreed, but again, "forgiveness factor" must have some physical manifestation, like a slow pressure ramp or even dispersion. What are attributes of commercial machines that produce a higher forgiveness factor than, say, a prosumer E61 double boiler?
shadowfax wrote:the ability to use a wide range of coffees
Again, this must mean something in terms of the physical capabilities of the machine like temperature or pressure. This is actually the point that makes the most sense to me. While I can target a 202-204 degree range on my E61 HX pretty easily now, I think it would be difficult to consistently hit a temp outside that range without having a wide temperature swing during my shot (without changing my pressure stat, which would be a pain on a regular basis). However, for a PIDed machine, I don't see why this would be an issue.
shadowfax wrote:dose ranges
I don't see why a commercial machine would be able to handle a specific dose any better than a consumer machine. I guess screen clearance could be an issue with some machines, but many consumer machines have similar (or identical) groupheads as commercial machines.

Also, since I know it's difficult to get across tone in a forum, to be clear, my questions are not meant to be rhetorical or argumentative. I have extremely limited use with commercial equipment (a 1 day barista class), so I just want to know what capabilities of these machines go into producing better espresso. Back to Dennis' blog post about the CC1, he ended it with the statement "How's the taste? I would say pretty good given that this is sub $700 machine. Its not Speedster, or GS/3 or Cremina but for the money this thing is hard to beat. Its consistent and stable." Never having used a Speedster or a GS/3, why would those machines be capable of creating a better tasting espresso than the CC1?

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tekomino
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#18: Post by tekomino »

sashaman, I think it would be hard for anyone to explain in terms of the exact physical properties why commercial machine produces better espresso on more consistent basis, but it does. If you had chance to use one you would agree too. The home equipment may pull great shot every once in a while but odds are stacked against that. To CC1 comment, remember, I said for the price of $700, there is always a price attached. For $700 yeah its great. If you talk exceptional espresso consistently, its of course, different story.

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shadowfax
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#19: Post by shadowfax »

Dennis has it exactly right. It doesn't matter if you can see a reason why x or y is the case. I don't fully understand why some machines are better than others, or easier to use than others. But I know that some are. I can't think of any reason why cheaper espresso machines have to be inferior, but the reality of my experience is that they are. Hopefully someone changes that, but I haven't seen it done yet.
Nicholas Lundgaard

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benm5678
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#20: Post by benm5678 »

The question is too how much diff does it make from a good prosumer level machine?

From what I understood, not much.

But intimately knowing your equipment and how to diagnose issues & adjust quickly to solve make a HUGE difference.