Flush routine for Rocket Premium Plus V3 PID

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jetsfaneh
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#1: Post by jetsfaneh »

Rocket Premium Plus V3 PID

Would love to hear from some Rocket Premium Plus V3 PID owners or others knowledgeable about this particular machine. I have read a lot about HX machines, flushes, etc. I was wondering what kind of flush routine is needed for this exact machine and if a group head thermometer will offer much. There are a couple things I have come across that makes me wonder if a thermometer or flush is needed.

For instance, Eric's Thermometer manual includes the following:
Operation of Espresso Machines which require little or no flushing: There are two (at least for now) double-boiler E-61 machines and three heat exchanger (hx) machines which require very little flushing. The double boiler machines are the Alex Duetto and the Vibiemme Double Domobar; the hx machines are the Vibiemme Domobar Super, and the entire line of Rocket Espresso machines. These two hx machines are fitted with thermosyphon restrictors (2.80 to 3.00 mm) in the upper tubing leading from the hx outlet to the group. These restrictors serve two purposes: one is to slow the thermosyphon flow during normal machine idle conditions and the other is to redistribute the portions of high temperature water admitted to the E-61 group during a brew cycle.
And the Rocket Manual has a boiler temperature to brew temperature conversion chart and includes the following:
Rocket Espresso machines measure the exact boiler temperature and display that reading on the controller. The table below shows the boiler temperature and the corresponding group head temperature.

Most espresso machines measure the water temperature used for the extraction in the brew boiler. The boiler temperature reading is then converted into a group head extraction temperature. This information is misleading and inaccurate as the digital readout on many machines does not display the real temperature at the group, rather the temperature the manufacturer wishes the user to see.

Rocket Espresso measures and displays boiler temperature. The table above indicates 'real' group temperature through precise measurement using the SCACE meter.
My question is does this information eliminate the need for a cooling flush and/or the group head thermometer? Would love to hear from some V3 PID users (and others) if possible to see what they can say about this and this machine in general. I thank all who respond in advance.


jetsfaneh (original poster)
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#2: Post by jetsfaneh (original poster) »

Somebody help a newbie yo!

turbo290
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#3: Post by turbo290 »

I got a Rocket Giotto Plus PID in October. With Eric's help and some experimentation I've found what works for me.
I don't have Eric's thermometer and I'm going with the numbers printed in the Rocket user guide. For light roast I set the PID at 119C, for darker roast 117C. You can of course adjust for personal taste, but give the machine 20 min to stabilize after adjusting temperature. After initial warmup, flush approx 180-200 ml to rid the HX of super heated water. From then on it's a short screen flush, lock in your portafilter and go. You'll only need longer flushes if the machine sits idle. Grouphead temperature will remain pretty constant so think in terms of flushing the over heated water from the HX. There's not much of a flash boil and it happens almost immediately if at all. You'll get some bubbling and eventually the stream will settle down. It's easier to see with a bottomless portafilter or directly from the shower screen. You're now back to where you need to be. I've found this routine produces consistent shots every time.

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JK
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#4: Post by JK »

I have a thermometer on my non Rocket HX and has helped me a lot..
You have to find how many seconds to flush (can be 5-25+) or get a temp. probe and flush to about 197° and brew in the next ten seconds worked for me..

I just posted a poor mans brew temp checker..
Poor Man's Brew Temperature Measurement

You could wedge a full Styrofoam cup under the group head and check water temps without a naked PF

Try flushes at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 sec. then add the poor mans thermo under the group right away and check what the temp of the 2oz of water coming out into the cup, this will give you a good gauge on what your brew temps are..

Or IMHO get a Erics Probe..
I use the same Taylor thermo. as Erics probe..
Order two at Amazon and use one for grilling and one for coffee or one for the Erics if you go that route.
This looks like the new quick read model..
http://www.amazon.com/Taylor-Precision- ... ters&psc=1
This one is the original model
http://www.amazon.com/Taylor-Precision- ... 5X8HXQ9D3B
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homeburrero
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#5: Post by homeburrero »

jetsfaneh wrote:My question is does this information eliminate the need for a cooling flush and/or the group head thermometer? Would love to hear from some V3 PID users (and others) if possible to see what they can say about this and this machine in general.
I don't have that machine, but it is an HX, and like all HX your brew temp is not that simple. Your brew temp is dependent on the 1) boiler temp, 2) the temp of the water flowing through the HX (which can be much cooler than the boiler temp after a flush), and 3) the temp of the heavy brass grouphead. When pulling shots in succession, you may need no cooling flush and may even need to wait a little to let the group and HX temp rebound. When pulling a shot from a machine that has been idle a while I'm sure you'll need at least some cooling flush.

I'm a bit of a compulsive analytic, so I found it really helpful to use an EricS group thermometer, and spent some time researching how to interpret it. Even if I had a PID, on an HX I'm sure I'd want it. When water is not flowing it's an indicator of grouphead temp, but while flushing it's more an indicator of the temp of the water coming from the HX. While brewing is well underway it can be a bit above or below the brew temp at the puck depending on the prior flushing technique. It helps tell you whether the machine has fully warmed up, and whether the group/HX has rebounded after a shot. Also lets you know right off if you happen to have some sort of thermosyphon stall problem. Eric has tons of info, and there's lots of discussion and graphs on HB related to using that thermometer.
Pat
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JK
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#6: Post by JK »

PS: Always test this after the machine has been heating up for an hour or more..
I had my machine on a cheap AC timer and it's 1900 watts on a 20 amp breaker and never popped the breaker..
Do these test after an hour warm up..
I use to do a 20 min warm up before pulling shots but have found that was not enough for the group to stabilize..
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I'm on a Mission from God!

turbo290
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#7: Post by turbo290 »

Operation of Espresso Machines which require little or no flushing: There are two (at least for now) double-boiler E-61 machines and three heat exchanger (hx) machines which require very little flushing. The double boiler machines are the Alex Duetto and the Vibiemme Double Domobar; the hx machines are the Vibiemme Domobar Super, and the entire line of Rocket Espresso machines. These two hx machines are fitted with thermosyphon restrictors (2.80 to 3.00 mm) in the upper tubing leading from the hx outlet to the group. These restrictors serve two purposes: one is to slow the thermosyphon flow during normal machine idle conditions and the other is to redistribute the portions of high temperature water admitted to the E-61 group during a brew cycle.

This is bang on. Go with it. Eric knows what he's talking about.

jetsfaneh (original poster)
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#8: Post by jetsfaneh (original poster) »

turbo290 wrote:...give the machine 20 min to stabilize after adjusting temperature. After initial warmup, flush approx 180-200 ml to rid the HX of super heated water.
For that first shot, are you pulling it directly after that initial 180-200 ml flush?

turbo290
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#9: Post by turbo290 »

I flush that amount after initial warm up ( approx 1hr) , weigh and grind beans. Short screen flush approx 2 sec. Pull shot. Perfect every time. Back to back shots only require screen flush. If the machine sits idle for awhile I repeat the longer flush but only until bubbling stops and flow settles into single stream. That will depend on how long machine has been idle. Let me know how it works for you. I went through the routine of varying flush times when I first got the machine and was trying to figure it out. It's totally trial and error without a thermometer. It made me crazy. Then I went back to Eric's recommendations. All is fine now.

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erics
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#10: Post by erics »

A lot will depend upon the duty cycle you use or plan to use on the machine.

For example, if it is mainly straight espresso and only yourself, that would be one situation. If you are making a combination of straight espresso and milk drinks for, say, three consumers, that is a second situation. Now think about the various combinations of the above two examples.

What does the boiler pressure gauge read after the machine has been sitting idle for 45-60 minutes? These Rocket machines are "steaming monsters" for your typical 6 oz. cappuccino and so I would say to adjust the PID such that the boiler pressure gage reads 0.90 bar (or less).
Skål,

Eric S.
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E-mail: erics at rcn dot com

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