Hello all

First time here, my name is Antonio and I have bought a second hand Fiorenzato Ducale for my business. The machine was supposed to be "serviced" but it has already broken twice (heating element and one solenoid) and I have some questions about the setup.

I have wrtitten a couple of threads on the coffegeek forums, but I haven't got any reply, maybe just one. I understand that cross-posting is not good but I hope I have waited enough time for me to post on another forum.

I am a technical guy and I have always been fashinated by coffee machines. Now that I have a professional one I'd like to get the most of it!

The main issue is with water I guess. I have a cilindrical softener (the one with resins that can be regenerated with salt) and the water coming from the softener is not very good actually. I tastes like "pipes", "burnt rubber" but tap water is not so bad, I would say "average".
As a consequence the water coming out of the machine smells funny but the coffee is very good.
I cannot use the water for a tea, the water is full of limescale and with a funny taste. This leads me to believe that either the softener does not work anymore or the boiler is filthy with limescale.



So following a suggestion from coffeegeek I emptied the softener canister in a clean bucket and puored into it 1.5Kg of salt. The canister looked good, I tried to remove any residual smells with some soda bicarbonate and vinegar. I rinsed the canister thouroughly at the end of course.
I left the resins alone with salt for a couple of hours, mixing them and replacing a bit of water every now and then. The water level left a "dark" dirty border on the bucket and that leads me to believe that the resins are not in good shape either
The procedure didn't have any effect unfortunately so I have ordered new resins. I do believe that if water is smelly, it's pretty useless to look into anything else, do you agree?

Second issue: water pressure. Trying to squeeze the most from my machine I set the water pressure to 9atm, I understand that this is what it is supposed to be. The pressure meter was reading 8atm and the needle was pretty steady. When I set the pressure to 9atm, the needle started to oscillate between 8 and 10. Is that ok?



I then set the grinder for a shot of 25ml in 25s. The coffee had a nice cream on it, but with a "white button" on top, and I do understand that this should mean too high temperature or grinder to be adjusted. But since I have the shot in 25s, I was thinking of the temperature. Any way to adjust it? I measured the temperature out of the machine with no filter and it starts at 97 degrees when it's still boiling to drop to 80 degrees approx after 20s. I read somewhere that the water temperature should be 60 degrees?? looks a bit low to me.

Finally I was told by my partner that now the shot takes 45s and if he adjusts the grinder a step then it takes only a few seconds. Need to investigate but if you could give me some hints I would really appreciate it!

Thanks a lot

Tony

What grinder do you have?
What coffee are you using?
Have you read these?
http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-guide.html
http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html
Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste
Mano Lite: A Short Guide to Dialing in Espresso SOs and Blends

hello bluecold

Thanks for the reply. I am afraid I do not know the brand of the grinder right now, I will check tonight and will post it soon.

The coffee is still not finalised, for the time being we are buying it from a bar nearby that imports it from Italy. I would lie if I told you I remember the name. Tonight.

Thanks for the links, I will read them. I also plan to take to the place my "post office precision" scale, I want to check the coffee ground weight. And here is the third question: I saw there are different filters that allow different quantities of coffee, how can I know what is the right quantity for my filters?

Thanks for your prompt reply, much appreciated.

Tony

edit: read some pages and it's great. I have some more questions now

1. how do you measure water temperature? I mean, where do you put the termocouple? Do you use the filter holder and you stick the termocouple inside the spout? I measured the temperature (tried to) without the filter holder.
2. The document says 192-203F degrees that are 89/94 degrees C. I measured 80 degrees, that looks like a bit low? I maybe should measure the temperature with the filter on and with the termocouple inside the spout? If the TC touches the metal frame the temperature would be affacted though...
3. What kind of boiler does my Ducale have? The steam pressure is usually on the higher side, between 1.1 and 1.3. Would it be better to lower it a little bit?

Sorry for the number of questions, all of this fashinates me! I'll keep reading and I'll do more tests and I'll keep you posted!

Thanks
Tony

tony359 wrote:Sorry for the number of questions, all of this fashinates me! I'll keep reading and I'll do more tests and I'll keep you posted!

Don't apologize! If it weren't for questions, H-B would be a dull place indeed. Learning and expanding knowledge is what it us all about.

Thanks allon, I am glad to be part of the family!

Ok, the grinder is a FRACINO. I also noted that the pression of the Ducale is between 1.2 and 1.4 all the time. It takes 30s of pre-flush to have the water to stop boiling.
Do you think I should reduce the boiler pressure a bit? For the time being the machine is not used very much, a few coffees a day. I am not making coffees and/or cappuccinos all the time.

What does it mean when the coffee powder AFTER the shot is full of bubbles and part of it stays attached at the group?

Temperature: taken with a TC on the spout (without touching the metal case) starts at 97 degrees C, stays at 97 degrees for 20ish seconds then drops but it keeps dropping without stopping it. I stopped the waterflow when I reached 75 degrees, after - I would say - 90 seconds.

Shouldn't the temperature stabilise at some point? Maybe because of the too high boiler temperature the "stabilised temperature" is 97 degrees?

I definitely need some help here! Could someone tell me how to set the boiler pressure on a Ducale?

I've worked with the ducale a few times. It ran at a substantially lower boiler pressure. 0.8 to 1.0 bar IIRC.
The Fracino grinders seem to be rebadges of Cunills. A picture would help to identify the exact model.

an exact way of measuring brew temperature is the Scace thermofilter. That one is expensive. But you don't need to measure exactly. A bit after boiling should do the trick.

Hi there

Here is a picture. I cannot see the exact model anywhere but you're right, there is a label saying "CUNNIL" on the bottom. Is it a good one?


(BTW, the coffee machine has just broken! Please choose carefully the seller when you buy it second hand!!)

I read a lot about pre-flushing the groups. I am just a bit concerned that the temperature does not stabilise but keeps going down. Anyway I guess the most important thing is not to brew the coffee without flushing the groups, it would burn the coffee immediately. If you brew your coffee when it stops boiling I guess the "average" temperature would be 94 degrees. But I thought that a professional machine could do much better.

And considering who sold it to me, there is also a good chance that the pressure meter does not work.

Anyway, how can I adjust the pression of the boiler?

It looks like a Cunill Tauro. 60mm burrs. Should be at least adequate. Large brand in spain afaik.

Temperature should be pretty stable and consistent as it has E61 groups.

Boiler pressure is adjusted via the pressurestat. Don't know how that one looks in the Ducale.

I'll try to take a picture tomorrow.

And about the temperature, do you think that it should be more stable? Anything I could check if it is not? Limescale in the pipes, preventing a good termal exchange?

This is the coffee after a shot. Is that a "tunnel" that shouldn't be there? Maybe I didn't press the coffee enough?


I also understand that there are many filter types. Does anybody know how much powder is supposed to be in my filter, picture attached? I am weighting the dose, the grinder was set to 7gr, but the scale (1gr precision, one with 0.1gr precision is on my way) says 8gr.



And the final question - then I'm going to bed I promise - is: how am I supposed to flush the groups if the water splashes so much that eventually it pemetrate inside the group's power switch - causing a short-circuit and eventually tripping the residual current device?

Thanks for your help!

Tony