Ken Fox wrote:Depends on how bad and how much milk

Most of my doppio are accompanied by two and a half to three and a half ounces of microfoamed milk and three(ish) grams of raw sugar. And they are great shots. Having tasted shots all my espresso life with these small amounts of milk and these small amounts of sugar, it's how I judge them. If it sucks, it sucks. Of course, I'm not a doubles shot of sugar water and pumpkin spice and a half-quart of milk drink guy, but suggesting that you could get away with mediocre or even bad shots in my drink is a bet that you'd lose. At best, you'd just lose my respect. At worst, I'd probably ask for my money back in front of your other customers depending on how you reacted to my asking you to take another stab at it.
In a ton of milk, I might buy your argument. In a small amount of milk, it won't fly.

Oh, and just think of the volumetric doser is a shot-saver. It's a manual button that turns itself off if you have to walk away. It's the difference (should you be interrupted, or be making the first shots of the day at an odd early hour and not be at the top of your game) between walking away with a decent shot instead of a great one, or starting over in the same sleep and coffee deprived state.
99.44% of the time, I shut off the shot myself if I'm not dialing in something new. Sometimes I just let it run when I know it's wrong, 'cause how long it goes, or how short it is will tell me something about how large my grinder adjustment will be. That few times when I'm distracted and, for whatever reason, get pulled away in the middle of pulling a shot, it's nice to be able to come back to something drinkable instead of an overflow into the drip tray.

Bill....is your GS3 one of the paddle models please?

Billc wrote:Marshall, Yes...
In the case of the GS3 there is pre-infusion and "post-infusion". Essentially there are 3 positions for the paddle valve. Off - low pressure - pump pressure. You get to choose when this stuff happens so the pre-infusion pressure will be the same as the "post-infusion" pressure. You would just have to move the paddle back to the low pressure position when you wanted to ramp down the pressure.

Anyone want to give a name to "post-Infusion". Does this describe this action properly?

i'm generally a milk based drink guy; for me, a poor, ordinary or great shot in a latte is obvious

i always use the volumetric buttons and cut the shot short if it blonds

michael wrote:i'm generally a milk based drink guy; for me, a poor, ordinary or great shot in a latte is obvious

Yes, but only because there's not much granularity between poor, ordinary and great. I think most would agree that milk masks subtle differences between shots. My contention is that a second or two difference on the volumetric button, with perhaps a tiny blop of extra blond (or not), isn't likely to be detectable in an 8-12 oz latte. Could it push a great shot into the realm of the ordinary? I suppose so, in a borderline case. But it kinda depends on just how far off the shot is, which in turn is likely to be a consequence of a significant change in the coffee (i.e., aging) grind, dose and/or distribution from when the button was programmed.

my lattes are more in the 5 1/2 to 7 oz category (depending on cup selection), 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 oz shot depending on blonding etc.

while the milk may make the poor shot almost drinkable (but i would sink it before wasting the milk), the great shot still stands out in the milk

malachi wrote:I've never met anyone who actually uses the volumetric dosing on a GS3 (or for that matter on a GB5 etc).
Everyone just programs a larger volume than you'll ever use and manually stops extraction when done (ie emulating a semi-auto machine).
This is not for pre-infusion reasons - but rather out of a desire to consistently produce good shots.

Chris,

I too use the volumetric buttons ONLY.... I get the same great results every time. I might be different than most as I buy the same coffee, grind exactly the same, use it only with in the same period = 2 days after roasting and only up to 6 days 7 most after roasting.

So the variables on the coffee bean in terms of grinding, tamping, temperatures and finally volumes are pretty consistent. Of course hot hot summer days might alter things slightly, but for most of the year everything has become repeatable happy to report !!

There are underlying (false) assumptions that are problematic. Some of them are small, but one is very large. On its own, it creates variability that undercuts the premise entirely. In combination, obviously, they make the approach completely unrealistic.

There is no such thing as "the same coffee." Even if you assume the same single green bean and assume it is vac packed and frozen between roasts, each roast is different. The reality is that the green is highly unlikely to be vac packed and frozen, and as such is constantly changing as it ages. So now you have a changing green bean and batch to batch roast variance. It's possible that you're working with a blend, in which case you also have batch to batch blend percentage changes on top of that. And then, of course, you have crop to crop change - which is basically the same as changing coffees entirely. If you're working with a blend, crop to crop is rarely a simultaneous change (harvest is at different dates in different parts of the world) which means that the blend changes as beans are substituted in and our over time. In some cases, this change takes place twice a year (the minimum I've experienced) and in other cases up to nearly every month. With many blends, it's not simply "take the old crop Bean X out and put the new crop Bean X in." Coffees change year to year and, as a result, blend changes often mean taking Bean X out and replacing it with Bean Y, sometimes in different percentages to maintain the same overall flavor (and in some cases it's as extreme as taking Bean X out, putting Bean Y and Bean Z in and changing percentages for all beans). Now stack all this changes on top of each other.... As said, there is no such thing as "the same coffee."

So... building your approach and protocol on the assumption that you are working with "the same coffee" every day is seriously flawed and will almost certainly result in inferior results.

(You can also talk about the slow process of burrs become dull and how that changes the equation, etc, etc).

malachi wrote:So... building your approach and protocol on the assumption that you are working with "the same coffee" every day is seriously flawed and will almost certainly result in inferior results.

Well said.
If you just relax and have fun and don't make any major mistakes, and take the coffee for what it is, it's way easier to enjoy a nice espresso. In one shot you might find orange, the next lavender, how nice!

malachi wrote: There is no such thing as "the same coffee." Even if you assume the same single green bean and assume it is vac packed and frozen between roasts, each roast is different.
.... As said, there is no such thing as "the same coffee."

So... building your approach and protocol on the assumption that you are working with "the same coffee" every day is seriously flawed and will almost certainly result in inferior results.

(You can also talk about the slow process of burrs become dull and how that changes the equation, etc, etc).

Probably true if you are looking with a microscope (not literally) at everything. I don't mean to say "Exactly" the same, but the variances are completely controllable. I never touch the grinder setting and either make a spot more or less grinds. I always tamp the same, same pressure, same temperature and the beans are always from the same Roaster, same 2nd day, so the variables you are talking about are not really within my or anybody's control. But I've got the variables down as far as its possible to go. Therefore + Great Coffee

Actually.... no.
Not just under a microscope.
Cup the coffee. It will be different batch to batch.
A professional cupper with good experience will be able to easily identify the changes even when brewed as espresso (in fact, many non-professional cuppers can do this). The changes will range from subtle to dramatic.

You're assuming one major variable is a constant.
If you instead accept it as a variable you will understand that all the other variables must VARY to adjust to change in that one other variable.

Understanding the realities of coffee as a volatile organic agricultural product - and understanding the realities of coffee roasting (the art not just the science) will allow you to understand the art (AND the science) of preparing espresso. Otherwise, we're all just monkeys poking sticks in the ground because one time when we did that - food came out.