I'd love to see Dan throw down with a Brewtus. Any chance of seeing this in the near future Dan? I'm struggling with the HX vs. Dual Boiler decision.
Jeff Johnson


(moved from News and Suggestion Box by moderator...)

Indeed, I was thinking about starting a thread asking what espresso machine reviews readers would like to see -- and I expected the Expobar Brewtus would be near the top of the list. Whole Latte Love currently isn't a site sponsor, but I did meet Todd Salzmon in Seattle at the SCAA conference and we discussed the possibility. No firm commitment at present.

Hmm-m, a very interesting writeup would be a "dual boiler smackdown":

• Expobar Brewtus
• Quick Mill dual boiler demonstrated at the SCAA (currently unnamed)
• La Spaziale S1 (update of the existing guide)
• La Marzocco "consumer model" -- hey, a guy can dream, right? (currently unnamed)

Needless to say, that would be a very ambitious undertaking.

Back to your original point, I agree, the whole HX versus dual boiler question is intriguing. To some extent, the Group Taste Comparison: Cimbali Junior versus La Marzocco Linea addressed part of this debate:

What are my own thoughts? I was scratching my head as I watched one of the participants tally the results. I unconsciously accepted La Marzocco as the de-facto standard based on all the positive press that I had read. My expectation of a lopsided victory in favor of the Linea simply did not materialize. As anticlimactic as it is to say, all the shots were darn good and if there was a difference, it wasn't much to get excited about.

So where does this leave you, the home espresso lover? The last comment above states it best: "This test proves that you can get 90-95% of the way to god shots with just good solid fundamentals." And obviously it helps to have a great espresso machine, which the Cimbali Junior proved itself worthy of the title.

The fundamental question I would ask: What differences do you expect to find in a dual boiler versus an HX?

PS: There's a number of threads on CoffeeGeek about Brewtus, such as the meaty discussion Brewtus Temperature measurements and more broad discussion A Week with Brewtus.

Hmm-m, a very interesting writeup would be a "dual boiler smackdown":

• Expobar Brewtus
• Quick Mill dual boiler demonstrated at the SCAA (currently unnamed)
• La Spaziale S1 (update of the existing guide)
• La Marzocco "consumer model" -- hey, a guy can dream, right? (currently unnamed)

Shouldn't the Reneka Techno be on that list?

sheygetz

Sure. It will also help the Reneka Techno's popularity now that Whole Latte Love sells it (link).

Hi all,

having followed the discussions here for some time, I reckon it's time for me to de-lurk, since I've been also struggling with the decision HX vs. Dual-boiler for a while now.

HB wrote:The fundamental question I would ask: What differences do you expect to find in a dual boiler versus an HX?

Well, I'd say I expect a more linear temperature profile from the Dual-boiler and a HX-Hump from the HX - go figure...

Being a n00b to espresso (got my first machine - a Butterfly - some six months ago, have developed some serious addiction since and am already pondering an upgrade to another machine - currently it looks like Cimbali Jr vs. Spaziale Vivaldi but still open for suggestions), two months ago I'd have said it's a no-brainer: "Schomer sez Dual-boiler and temperature-stability rulez and the guy knows his business"...

Alas - I am no longer sure about that. After having become familiar with the proper flushing technique, I managed to pull some quite good shots from my Butterfly (E61/vibe. pump) in the past two months. And unfortunately I lack such a positive experience from the commercial machines I occasionally get a ristretto from. Everything I got served within the past two months seems mediocre at best, when I compare it to my coffee at home.

To cut the long story short: Which produces the better coffee? Slant-L or HX-hump? (And - yes, I know, the one with the better guy at the handle side of the portafilter...).

Is there a clear unambiguous answer? Does it depend on the coffee/roast? Personal preferences? Anything else?

----
Great forum and website, btw...

Thanks Walter for delurking! I think that you've summed up the HX versus dual boiler thinking of many people (i.e., "Schomer sez Dual-boiler and temperature-stability rulez and the guy knows his business"). David Schomer has forgotten more about espresso than I've yet to learn, but the exhortations of the late-comer contest entry "Challenge Authority" resonate with me. And yet I've not revealed publicly (until now) that I've been plotting to open the discussion of this point...

My plan came to full fruition The Day that Malachi Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs. Soon thereafter, Chris' Briccoletta review advanced the argument that neither design is inherently superior if the criteria is solely the in-cup result. Abe's upcoming Brewtus review will be addressing this question too, i.e., what considerations should gravitate you towards one choice or another. But publication is still a few weeks off and I don't want to risk misrepresenting his opinion, so I yield the discussion to my esteemed colleagues...

Walter wrote:Well, I'd say I expect a more linear temperature profile from the Dual-boiler and a HX-Hump from the HX - go figure... :D

Actually, you can "mimic" the brew temp profile of a dual boiler (or at least a Linea) with an HX machine.

Walter wrote: "Schomer sez Dual-boiler and temperature-stability rulez and the guy knows his business"...

But.... he's talking about commercial situations.

Walter wrote:And unfortunately I lack such a positive experience from the commercial machines I occasionally get a ristretto from. Everything I got served within the past two months seems mediocre at best, when I compare it to my coffee at home.

Which continues to illustrate the key points.
1 - the espresso machine is probably the least important of the 4Ms.
2 - espresso is fundamentally subjective and personal.

Walter wrote:To cut the long story short: Which produces the better coffee? Slant-L or HX-hump? (And - yes, I know, the one with the better guy at the handle side of the portafilter...).

You answered your own question.
Seriously.

But seriously... it depends. Assuming equal and very high skill it will depend on the coffee, your barista style (technique choices) and your personal taste in espresso.

Walter wrote:Is there a clear unambiguous answer? Does it depend on the coffee/roast? Personal preferences? Anything else?

No. Yes/Yes (but it's more complicated than that). Yes. Oh yeah (pump, water, grinder, barista skill, environment, etc etc).


Of course, to throw a spanner in the works... I think there are things as important as the HX/dual boiler decision like rotary/vibe, plumbed-in/reservoir, E61/saturated group, semi-auto/auto, style of pre-infusion....
And to make it all more confusing, my dream machine would be a dual-boiler (though a saturated group, external rotary pump, manual pre-infusion, plumbed-in, semi-auto one).

Thanks for the warm welcome Dan & Chris!

As I mentioned above I'm but an aspirant to the craft (or should I say lore? ) of coffeemaking and actually it was your articles ("How I ... learned to love Hxs" and the "Mia Cribsheet") that brought the next significant improvement to the quality - and even more so a certain consistency - of my shots (the first had been recognizing the importance of distributing and tamping and of machine cleanliness) and thus made me question my former opinion that a Dual-boiler must be the best choice, even for the ambitious Home-coffee-maker like myself.

While I was fully aware that Schomer (in his book) is addressing only commercial situations, my thinking kept going along the line: "What is the best solution for the professional must also be best solution for the Home-Barista". It was only later that I started to question this and thus to-date I find myself very much in agreement with what Bruce's contribution "Questioning Authority" points out.

Now, I still appreciate Schomer's efforts in the past to improve the quality of the coffee served in his coffeeshops (after all he has been a major trendsetter with this, IMO) but his statements often remind me more of dogmas than of working hypotheses.

malachi wrote:

Walter wrote:And unfortunately I lack such a positive experience from the commercial machines I occasionally get a ristretto from. Everything I got served within the past two months seems mediocre at best, when I compare it to my coffee at home.

Which continues to illustrate the key points.
1 - the espresso machine is probably the least important of the 4Ms.
2 - espresso is fundamentally subjective and personal.

Agreed but still, it doesn't help me with my decision as to which machine I should upgrade. I mean my Butterfly is a neat machine, it makes quite good coffee and it's not really limiting the quality of my shots, but it is definitely not the machine I'll be happy with for - say - the next decade.

malachi wrote:

Walter wrote:To cut the long story short: Which produces the better coffee? Slant-L or HX-hump? (And - yes, I know, the one with the better guy at the handle side of the portafilter...).

You answered your own question.
Seriously.

But seriously... it depends. Assuming equal and very high skill it will depend on the coffee, your barista style (technique choices) and your personal taste in espresso.

Again, I don't argue, but that doesn't help me either. My skill is probably rather low, but I'm willing to learn and destined to improve. And - unfortunately - I won't get the opportunity to work for some time with any of the machines that come into consideration before making my choice. And I'd venture to say that very few aficionados, like myself, ever get a chance to lay a hand on one of these fancy machines like a Mirage or a Mistral, let alone pull a shot from it and see whether or not it tastes very different from the coffee they make at home...

This all means that I - like many others - will probably have to make my decision based on theoretical considerations rather than practical experience.

malachi wrote:Of course, to throw a spanner in the works... I think there are things as important as the HX/dual boiler decision like rotary/vibe, plumbed-in/reservoir, E61/saturated group, semi-auto/auto, style of pre-infusion....

As for the rest you mention, I have a much clearer "vision": rotary, plumbed-in (but not dependent on water pressure for boiler refill; which pretty much would rule out the Junior DT, I guess), wouldn't mind another E61 but would prefer manual pre-infusion, semi auto would suffice

malachi wrote:And to make it all more confusing, my dream machine would be a dual-boiler (though a saturated group, external rotary pump, manual pre-infusion, plumbed-in, semi-auto one).

Now we're talking: Do you mean for home use? And if so, why dual boiler? Care to elaborate why your personal preference is a Dual-boiler rather than a HX?

Sorry for the longish post...

P.S. Dan, I shall be awaiting Abe's Brewtus review with bated breath

Why that set of attributes?
Well... I really want a saturated group, so that pretty much requires a dual boiler setup to be most effective.
If I had to rank the importance (to me) of the listed attributes they would go:

1) plumbed in
2) rotary pump
3) semi-auto
4) saturated group
5) manual pre-infusion
6) external pump
7) dual boiler

In other words, I'd be happy with a plumbed in, external rotary pump, semi-auto, manual pre-infusion HX machine but there would be some sacrifices in total quality due to the lack of a saturated group.

This prompts a question (somewhat related):

Do the HX machines that are not E-61s (such as junior, pasquini, elektra,... it's a long list, no need to continue) have a thermosyphon, or just a "one path" HX thru the boiler to the group?

Chris, may I also ask, "Why your preference for an external pump?"

And finally, "What is manual pre infusion?" A setup where operator controls the pre-infuse time? Pressure? Both?

Thanks

lino