mhoy wrote:Why would a smaller dead band help that much on a HX machine?

I'd agree if we're talking 0.2 bars vs. 0.1, etc., but an 0.4 deadband is really ridiculous. That's somewhere in the neighborhood of a 20°F deadband. Even on a HX, I would expect that pulling a shot at the bottom vs. the top of the boiler cycle would yield a notably different overall brew temperature, not to mention a very different temperature profile. As far as why I am PIDing it vs. buying a new pressurestat, it's really just for the convenient adjustment and increased reliability, at not much higher of a cost.

On the plus side you don't scratch the outside cover (like I did on my Anita). I just don't tighten the inside bottom two bolts... there is no way I want to remove the front panel just to get down there, I've done it ONCE without removing the front and it was even more of a royal pain. If my boiler would have been hot, it would be have been impossible.

I know what you mean. I hated that on Vetrano as well. Horizontally mounted, slotted screws are kind of silly. Fortunately, I get to pick what style of screw to use, so I think I'm going with these, button head socket screws. You use an Allen wrench or similar tool to remove them, so you don't have to worry about unsteady hands putting hairline scratches in the cover with the screwdriver. On the other hand, they still look pretty good with the curved "button head."

I'll have to try out just using the 2 top bolts; that might work for a little while. I've ordered some 1/16" thick x 1/2" wide adhesive foam to place strategically in the machine to get better vibration dampening. The place I ordered it from is sending me 150 ft of this stuff, the smallest roll that I could order ($14 after shipping ). I'll do my machine and my friend's Vibiemme DS, and then if anyone else is interested, I'd be glad to "pay it forward" after I am done.

RapidCoffee wrote:A bottomless PF helps to reduce spray from the HX flush, without muffling the sound nearly as much as a regular PF.

John, I thought this was a good idea, so I gave it a shot this evening. The Elektra seemed to laugh at me. Spray was reduced... I think. It's hard to tell, but it still left drops all over the tray, backsplash, and counter in front of the machine, so no less work. It was as if she said, ha! who do you think I am, some wimpy little 'prosumer' machine? Come closer, let me burn you!

Another thing I wanted to mention was a somewhat quizzical experience I had today. After making a few shots this morning and around midday, when I came back in the afternoon, I did a detergent backflush, and after rinsing it out thoroughly, I noticed that Elektra wasn't flash boiling during the cooling flushes at all. Even from 5+ minute idle! I locked in my borrowed "poor man Scace," a thermal probe snaked into a hole in a single basket stuffed with a rag, and the Fluke was reading a max temperature at the flush of between 198F and 207F. It just would not hit the ~212F you're supposed to see during flash boiling (which I had seen yesterday when I was messing with this thermofilter).

Now, I must note that it got way colder today. Yesterday was a warm day, and with the Elektra running and 6 people in the house, it got to around 80F, and today a cold front came in and now it's down into the low 70s. Still, it'd been flash boiling earlier in the day. I puzzled for awhile, and then I decided to try to do a quick descale of the HX in a mild citric acid solution. So I hooked up the machine to feed from a gallon bottle filled with a solution of about 2 tbsp of citric acid powder dissolved in 3L. I backflushed and let it sit for 5 minutes 3 times, doing a big flush just prior to each backflush. After the second backflush, she was back to her fire-breathing, flash-boiling self, so I hooked her back up to the water line and flushed a generous amount of fresh water through. She seems back to normal, but I am still stumped as to why this worked. It's not like I didn't descale her plentifully when I had her disassembled.

I am guessing that the heat exchanger stalled, but how? I'd really like to make sure this doesn't happen again... it's hard to gauge how long to flush without the flash boiling.

shadowfax wrote:but an 0.4 deadband is really ridiculous.

I've a new pstat (that I don't even hear click), I'll try and remember to check the dead band tomorrow if I have time in the morning.

shadowfax wrote:I'll have to try out just using the 2 top bolts; that might work for a little while. I've ordered some 1/16" thick x 1/2" wide adhesive foam to place strategically in the machine to get better vibration dampening. The place I ordered it from is sending me 150 ft of this stuff, the smallest roll that I could order ($14 after shipping ). I'll do my machine and my friend's Vibiemme DS, and then if anyone else is interested, I'd be glad to "pay it forward" after I am done.

Drop some boiling water on the foam to make sure it doesn't melt. The plastic edge protectors for electronics that I found melt at espresso machine temp. Luckily the also cool into a cohesive blob that is easy to remove when cold.

shadowfax wrote:I am guessing that the heat exchanger stalled, but how? I'd really like to make sure this doesn't happen again... it's hard to gauge how long to flush without the flash boiling.

I've never stalled the thermo syphon in my short time of use (< 1 year).

Mark

Hi Nicholas,

you can buy a new CEME pressurestat for around 40$ which is way more cheaper than buying a PID, a fitting and a TC. Are you actually going to be changing the temperature in the boiler so often? Usually on a HX it's simply left at one setting which hardly ever gets changed.

Even on my, newer model, the front plate is annoying, but I'm guessing it's nothing compared to the old version. There's a couple of things inside and outside the machine that I would change and that are simply stupid, but I guess it's harder than we think to design a proper full-proof box. The most annoying thing has to be the group and how it splatters all over the place when you flush it. I can live with some water drops on the counter in the front, but when you get half of the damn kitchen (well not really but I wanted to make a dramatic statement) and your hands covered in boiling water it stops being funny.

Mark can I ask what pstat did you buy? I'm planning to change the Sirai to a smaller pstat and an SSR as the noise of the beefy contact inside the Sirai is driving me crazy.

Regards,
dsc.

dsc wrote:Hi Nicholas,
you can buy a new CEME pressurestat for around 40$ which is way more cheaper than buying a PID, a fitting and a TC. Are you actually going to be changing the temperature in the boiler so often? Usually on a HX it's simply left at one setting which hardly ever gets changed.

Paul Pratt's web site has a nice comparison of the various pstats.

dsc wrote:Mark can I ask what pstat did you buy? I'm planning to change the Sirai to a smaller pstat and an SSR as the noise of the beefy contact inside the Sirai is driving me crazy.

I went with a Sirai, turns out it does make a bit of a click, but I've never paid enough attention to it before.

Mark

Oh, yeah, the dead band is about 0.125.

Mark

Mark, that's a pretty impressive deadband for Sirai. Most of the ones I have seen/had run about 0.2 bar, even when new (and of course, it grows over time).

I don't like the idea of a CEME stat either... none of the pressurestats that I have read about have a reputation for longevity. That is my primary concern, as this machine will be on plenty of the time.

I think I am getting around .2 on the deadband with my stock Sirai pstat. I have never had an issue with any kind of thermosiphon stall on the Elektra regardless of how many shots I pulled through it back to back. That is unusual.

As to the fire breathing dragon, I will do my initial flush with a portafilter in the group. The bottomless does tame the spray down but it still sprays. I use a single spout most of the time, it is relatively easy to see when the flash boil stops with it. The flow goes from a spurting glugging herky jerky flow to a steady and even flow. Then I remove my portafilter, grind/dose/etc and do a smaller flush before I brew. That second flush is much less violent. I also have my Pstat set around 0.95-1.0 bar at the top of cycle. Any higher is pretty much a waste. There is enough steam in the boiler to do 6 ounces of milk in 15 seconds, I don't need it any faster than that. I keep a bar towel folded neatly in front of my machine as well. It helps to catch the extra spray and is handedly available for quick portafilter wipes.

I have had an A3 for a while now, but I still stare at photos and think I wonder if my machine looks that good to visitors at my house. The only machine I would trade it for is a Speedster, based on cup and looks.

Per the suggestions, I have been putting a rag on the drip tray during the big flushes. Flushing with a normal portafilter, without a basket as Dave mentioned, does seem to pretty well. The other idea that I had was to stick my spare 12 oz. steaming pitcher up to the group during the initial flush. This works really nicely, even preventing any splash on the drip tray that you see even with a portafilter locked in.

cannonfodder wrote:I have had an A3 for a while now, but I still stare at photos and think I wonder if my machine looks that good to visitors at my house. The only machine I would trade it for is a Speedster, based on cup and looks.

I know what you mean about this, Dave! The Elektra makes a great cup, but the machine's looks are just imposing. It really stands out as one of the prettiest machines I've seen, and I don't know why. At first glance it looks like a blown-up E61 machine, but on reflection, for me at least, it's much prettier than that characterization would suggest. I like it better than the GS3's looks, and I'd put it on par with EPNW's restored 2 group GS, or, as you say, a Speedster.

Tom, I've been dabbling with 17.5 gram doses in my Synesso triple basket this morning. I feel kinda bleh about this with the coffee I am using, which is getting rather old, about 15 days now. I get extractions that mirror the videos that I've seen on your 'true' doubles thread... fairly even pour overall, but has lots of channeling--no spritzes, just the little flourishes that push the cone around. You can really taste it in the cup, too.

I'm irritated with myself for running out of fresh coffee, but it's hard to stay well supplied when you're going through it this fast...

shadowfax wrote:John, I thought this was a good idea, so I gave it a shot this evening. The Elektra seemed to laugh at me. Spray was reduced... I think. It's hard to tell, but it still left drops all over the tray, backsplash, and counter in front of the machine, so no less work. It was as if she said, ha! who do you think I am, some wimpy little 'prosumer' machine? Come closer, let me burn you!
...
Per the suggestions, I have been putting a rag on the drip tray during the big flushes. Flushing with a normal portafilter, without a basket as Dave mentioned, does seem to pretty well. The other idea that I had was to stick my spare 12 oz. steaming pitcher up to the group during the initial flush. This works really nicely, even preventing any splash on the drip tray that you see even with a portafilter locked in.

Uh huh, my wimpy little fully plumbed rotary pump prosumer machine. I know it's not an Elektra; go ahead and rub it in!!!

My 20oz milk pitcher sees 99% of its use as an HX flush/PF wiggle splash catcher. That takes care of almost all errant splashes. Glad this is working for you too.

shadowfax wrote:The other idea that I had was to stick my spare 12 oz. steaming pitcher up to the group during the initial flush. This works really nicely, even preventing any splash on the drip tray that you see even with a portafilter locked in.
...

Forgot to mention that, I also do that on occasion, usually when I have the portafilter out of the machine. That usually means I messed up on the dose and did it again which lets the machine heat up even more and I now have a puck in the portafilter. I keep an old pitcher beside my grinder just for that. I have also held my 6 ounce cup (making a cappa) up under the group to catch the first few violent seconds of the flush. That is the nice thing about being plumbed out, you just dump that cup of water into the drip tray and then pull your shot into it.

RapidCoffee wrote:Uh huh, my wimpy little fully plumbed rotary pump prosumer machine. I know it's not an Elektra; go ahead and rub it in!!!

Well, I have to do something to look like I'm keeping up with you, Mr. S1!

I'd say you're doing a fine job of keeping up with the H-Bers. Plus this makes for a much more interesting story. After all, who wants a machine that you can just hook up and start pulling shots? (In fairness, I did have to replace the dispersion block on my S1. Pod people! )

Hi guys,

Come closer, let me burn you!

Now going back to that subject...

I thought this might be interesting to all you Elektra owners out there. Two days ago I cleaned the dispersion block because I was annoyed with how the machine was spraying all over the place. It turned out to be a stupid idea as it got worse to the point were the streams of water were defying the laws of gravity and bending around (!!) the drip tray onto the buttons and my hands. I was seriously pissed off and decided to find the source of this problem. I removed the shower screen and put only the dispersion block on to see what's causing this strange behaviour. Turning the pump on showed some spraying, but the water streams were mostly straight, so it had to be the shower screen. As I have two shower screens and played with them before I knew that the problems lays in the design of the screen, not in the fact that the screen might be dirty or broken. I tried turning the screen, changing it's position, but the group was still shooting jets of water in random directions even at 70-80*C. Afterwards I tried tightening the group screw a bit less and it got a bit better, but another problem appeared. Now water was running mostly around the perimeter of the screen as the connection between the disk and the screen was not tight enough. I had another look at the screen, how it's made and compared it to the e61 shower screen which is very similar except for the centre screw. I looked at that area a bit more and noticed that when you tighten the screw to keep the screen in place it also brings the thin mesh on the outside of the screen and the metal hole-covered plate at it's back very close together so that they touch. Apparently this isn't good as water going through the holes in the screen's plate hits the mesh at strange angles and tends to run on it's surface, bend and so on. So the solution was easy, keep the mesh a bit away from the hole-covered plate and it should work. That's what loosing the screw is doing and it works, so I decided to give it a try. I took some 1mm copper wire and stuck it between the mesh and the plate around the screw hole:



This allows me to tighten the screw hard enough to eliminate water passing around the perimeter of the screen, but keeps some space between the mesh and the plate. Result? less jets, steady flow and less mess around the machine:)

Hope this helps someone or at least motivates to at least give it a try.

Now back to you Nicholas...

Regards,
dsc.

Is the wire between the mesh and block? I couldn't tell what the picture was for but maybe I'm missing something.

Cruzmisi, that's my understanding.

Tom, thanks for that tip. I am away from home on an unexpected business trip (ooh, Friday at the oil rig!), but I'll try that out tomorrow night or Sunday when I get back.

Ah, I have the original older shower screen, perhaps that's why I don't have as much counter top splashing.

Mark

Hi guys,

it looks like I wasn't clear enough in my description (and now I can see why as there are to hole-covered plates that you can use).

Here's how the screen looks like:



and from behind:



The idea is to stick some wire between those two parts that make the screen (NOT between the shower screen and the dispersion block as it will cause water running around the shower screen). The previous photograph in my other post was showing where you can stick the wire as it shows the mesh on top of the back of the screen (the thin metal plate with holes in it). So to sum it up we are actually separating the two layers that create the shower screen to allow a bit more room for water.

Hope this makes more sense:)

Regards,
dsc.

Interesting Idea, Tom. I installed my own mod just now, although I think that it's using a bit thicker wire than you. I used a strand from some 12 gauge copper wire. Anyway, It did absolutely nothing to tame the ridiculous flash boiling, but it seems to reduce the sideways spray that occurs after the flash boiling starts. This seems nice--it means that I can take the pitcher out from under the group and do other prep immediately prior to shot prep... namely drying the heated cup, which I used to do during preinfusion... If I attempt this now, as you can imagine, I lose the first drops of the shot.

Tom: Ah, the mystery becomes a bit clearer. I remember you (and others) talking about a massive amount of spray and I never really noticed. Take a look at my shower screen. Looks about the same from the top, with only shadows of what is on the other side.



But under this is a different animal with slightly more head space.



These are freshly cleaned up. I had back flushed yesterday, but when I dropped this out of the head, it was kinda, well, in need of more cleaning.

Another interesting thing is that the E61 shower screens have more head space in them so that they don't complain as much when over dosed, unlike our Elektra's. Your wire mode may allow for a bit more coffee too!

Mark