E61 vs E2009 - Page 3

by **decaf_Ed** on Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:38 am

Discussing whether a flush on an HX is "cooling" or "warming" is a little risky (or reckless) without discussing thermosiphon restrictors, or the lack thereof. At the extremes, some groups run cool, and some run very hot. A cheap glue-on sensor would be very practical and informative for most users.
-Ed

by **Marshall** on Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:41 am

timo888 wrote:Odd engineering to attach an E61 group on a double-boiler design.

Don't forget:
1. Preinfusion.
2. Large cost saving of using standard parts.
3. Visual "wow" factor.

If some people are deciding against the DC Mini based on the apperance of the brewhead cowl, you know that visual factors matter a lot in sales.

by **Endo** on Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:24 am

timo888 wrote:One of the advantages of the double-boiler design is that there is absolutely no need for a massive heat-sink. The brew water and steam water can be kept at their respective temperatures. Odd engineering to attach an E61 group on a double-boiler design. What you'd want to do is to minimize the heat-sinking character of the group. A small stainless group would be more energy efficient, and no less stable thermally.

Yes. This is the logic behind the Vivaldi. Another big benefit is that it makes the warm-up only half as long(less than 20 min). Once they added pre-infusion. You have the best of all worlds.

The next logical step is the Dalla Corte design where the head mass is small but the water itself provides the thermal stability. It's no concidence that the designer of the Vivaldi was the brains behind the Dalla Corte.

Bluecold wrote:Since there is an influx of cold water, a group with a high thermal mass is beneficial to the thermal stability.

You're confused with HX. The E-61 was designed around the HX concept and this is also the reason behind its shortcomings when used in a DB.

by **decaf_Ed** on Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:33 am

Marshall wrote:If some people are deciding against the DC Mini based on the apperance of the brewhead cowl, you know that visual factors matter a lot in sales.

I'm sure there are many users that would not use a glue-on temperature indicator because of the effect it would have on aesthetics. Maybe some of these folks will use one long enough to learn about the behavior of their particular machine with their procedure, and then scrape it off when they feel like they understand what's going on. Without an on-site tutor, training wheels have helped a lot of people.
-Ed

by **zin1953** on Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:23 pm

Marshall wrote:If some people are deciding against the DC Mini based on the apperance of the brewhead cowl, you know that visual factors matter a lot in sales.

This isn't a surprise, is it? Look how many people post that they cannot stand the plastic sides on a Vivaldi II, or the boxy aesthetics of many HX models . . .

Personal opinion: I, too, hate the way that "pineapple" looks . . . .

Cheers,
Jason

by **Endo** on Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:04 pm

Form follows function. If the Dalla Corte works well enough and if it gets enough good reviews by the respected folks in the business, I'm sure it would suddenly start looking a lot better.

How do you think the E-61 was viewed the first time? I bet there were a lot of "chrome hockey puck" comments.

Beauty is in the eye of the portfilter holder. :lol:

by **IMAWriter** on Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:22 pm

Endo...latecomers to home espresso like me (bought my Anita nearly 6 years ago) first thought of the E61 as the "Starship Enterprise"
Still do.

by **timo888** on Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:44 pm

Marshall wrote:Don't forget:
1. Preinfusion.
2. Large cost saving of using standard parts.
3. Visual "wow" factor.

If some people are deciding against the DC Mini based on the apperance of the brewhead cowl, you know that visual factors matter a lot in sales.

Yes, there are reasons for choosing to place an E61 group on a double-boiler machine, which are unrelated to design per se.

The Soviet car, the Volga, could be repaired with tractor parts :wink:

Preinfusion can be made a function of the pump controller. Don't need an E-61 for that.

And the DC's cowl is over-the-top aesthetically, for my tastes anyway. The initials DC are fitting, no?

by **Marshall** on Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:24 pm

timo888 wrote:Preinfusion can be made a function of the pump controller. Don't need an E-61 for that.

Cheaply? Without line pressure? The manufacturers who are actually in the business and controlling their costs seem to prefer the E61.

by **zin1953** on Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:01 pm

Endo wrote:Form follows function. If the Dalla Corte works well enough and if it gets enough good reviews by the respected folks in the business, I'm sure it would suddenly start looking a lot better.

Endo, the DC got lots of great comments from well-respected people, and if Sovrana hadn't have sold out, I'd have been the owner of one, long before (and for a lot less $$$) than Marshall!

Since the "new" DC has come onto the US market, a number of people whose opinion I respect (Marshall included) have touted the benefits of the Dalla Corte. Several things stopped me from considering it:

The Dalla Corte Mini has no hot water tap, and that is a feature I use frequently.
The Dalla Corte Mini is a pourover, and I wanted a plumbed-in model.
The Dalla Corte Mini utilizes, in this day and age, an analog dial to adjust the temperature instead of a digital controller. A small thing, perhaps, but it bugs me in a $3,000 machine.
The earliest models (when I was seriously looking) all bore the legend "Proof of Taste" on the drip tray, and I really hated that!
The Dalla Corte Super Mini, OTOH, has a hot water tap and can be plumbed-in, but it's $1500 more, and still uses an analog controller!

Finally, when I saw one of the new Dalla Corte Minis (Super Mini? I don't remember now), that plastic "pineapple" looked even uglier (to me) than in its pictures. That, and "Proof of Taste," really turned me off.

Endo wrote:How do you think the E-61 was viewed the first time? I bet there were a lot of "chrome hockey puck" comments.

I actually doubt that. The Italians don't play as much ice hockey as the Canadians . . .

Endo wrote:Beauty is in the eye of the portfilter holder.

Agreed.

As far as the actual merits of the machine (i.e.: aesthetics aside), I have very little doubt it's an excellent machine. But at $2,990 for the Dalla Corte Mini, and at $4,490 for the Dalla Corte Super Mini, the prices seem high to me. For example, the Vibiemme Double Domobar Electronic Stainless Direct Connet w/PID is only $2,299. For me, that is a significant price difference.

C'est la vie . . .

Cheers,
Jason


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