Discussing whether a flush on an HX is "cooling" or "warming" is a little risky (or reckless) without discussing thermosiphon restrictors, or the lack thereof. At the extremes, some groups run cool, and some run very hot. A cheap glue-on sensor would be very practical and informative for most users.
-Ed

timo888 wrote:Odd engineering to attach an E61 group on a double-boiler design.

Don't forget:
1. Preinfusion.
2. Large cost saving of using standard parts.
3. Visual "wow" factor.

If some people are deciding against the DC Mini based on the apperance of the brewhead cowl, you know that visual factors matter a lot in sales.

timo888 wrote:One of the advantages of the double-boiler design is that there is absolutely no need for a massive heat-sink. The brew water and steam water can be kept at their respective temperatures. Odd engineering to attach an E61 group on a double-boiler design. What you'd want to do is to minimize the heat-sinking character of the group. A small stainless group would be more energy efficient, and no less stable thermally.

Yes. This is the logic behind the Vivaldi. Another big benefit is that it makes the warm-up only half as long(less than 20 min). Once they added pre-infusion. You have the best of all worlds.

The next logical step is the Dalla Corte design where the head mass is small but the water itself provides the thermal stability. It's no concidence that the designer of the Vivaldi was the brains behind the Dalla Corte.

Bluecold wrote:Since there is an influx of cold water, a group with a high thermal mass is beneficial to the thermal stability.

You're confused with HX. The E-61 was designed around the HX concept and this is also the reason behind its shortcomings when used in a DB.

Marshall wrote:If some people are deciding against the DC Mini based on the apperance of the brewhead cowl, you know that visual factors matter a lot in sales.

I'm sure there are many users that would not use a glue-on temperature indicator because of the effect it would have on aesthetics. Maybe some of these folks will use one long enough to learn about the behavior of their particular machine with their procedure, and then scrape it off when they feel like they understand what's going on. Without an on-site tutor, training wheels have helped a lot of people.
-Ed

Form follows function. If the Dalla Corte works well enough and if it gets enough good reviews by the respected folks in the business, I'm sure it would suddenly start looking a lot better.

How do you think the E-61 was viewed the first time? I bet there were a lot of "chrome hockey puck" comments.

Beauty is in the eye of the portfilter holder.

Endo...latecomers to home espresso like me (bought my Anita nearly 6 years ago) first thought of the E61 as the "Starship Enterprise"
Still do.

Marshall wrote:Don't forget:
1. Preinfusion.
2. Large cost saving of using standard parts.
3. Visual "wow" factor.

If some people are deciding against the DC Mini based on the apperance of the brewhead cowl, you know that visual factors matter a lot in sales.

Yes, there are reasons for choosing to place an E61 group on a double-boiler machine, which are unrelated to design per se.

The Soviet car, the Volga, could be repaired with tractor parts

Preinfusion can be made a function of the pump controller. Don't need an E-61 for that.

And the DC's cowl is over-the-top aesthetically, for my tastes anyway. The initials DC are fitting, no?

timo888 wrote:Preinfusion can be made a function of the pump controller. Don't need an E-61 for that.

Cheaply? Without line pressure? The manufacturers who are actually in the business and controlling their costs seem to prefer the E61.

Standardized parts and service.
Affordable.
Consumer demand.

Yeah... it's not the best option. It's not optimized for DB usage. But manufacturers can sell more for more profits if they use it. So be it.

As for the DC... suffice it to say that there are "mixed reviews" of this machine.

Marshall wrote:Cheaply? Without line pressure? The manufacturers who are actually in the business and controlling their costs seem to prefer the E61.

With no line pressure how exactly do pour over E61 machines preinfuse?

onthego wrote:With no line pressure how exactly do pour over E61 machines preinfuse?

It relies on the spring-loaded chamber that hangs below the brewhead.

I think is is a very interesting discussion. According to my belief a well balanced e61 HX should bring the group at optimal brew temperature in idle status. The thermosyphon should be balanced in this way. If the grouphead is warmer or hotter than optimal brew temperature, the thermosyphon is not balanced and you need to do a "cooling flush" or a "warming flush" to get the group in right temperature. For a balanced thermosyphon you just do a "flush" which is flushing the superheated thermosyphon-water out from the pipes but you are not trying to change the group temperature by flushing for a long time.

OK, is there a lot of non balanced e61 HX out there?

I think, Yes.

Why? My personal thoughts is that the concept HX-e61 does not work to 100% when it is run as a HX-e61 with vibe pump and water tank.

First. When the water pressure in the thermosyphon is lower than the boiler pressure (as for vibe-water tank HX-e61) the water in the thermosyphon can start to boil and you get blend of steam and water in thermosyphon. My feeling is that it is very hard to design a well balanced thermosyphon when the water may start to boil. A plumbed in machine with rotary pump will pressurize the thermosyphon with a higher pressure than the boiler pressure and therefore the water in the thermosyphon will stay liquid and the heating of the group head will be more easy to control.

The second thing with water tank HX-e61 machines is that I think the variation in tank water temperature is too high in order to get stable brew temperature. The HX is designed to heat the incoming water to a temperature very near optimal brew temperature, the final adjustment is made in the brew head. The boiler temperature is quite stable for this purpose probable only varying a few percent up and down. The water flow is constant, set by restrictor and pump. The heat transfer physics in the HX is constant and does not change much. The inlet HX temperature is directly influencing the out-temperature of the HX. In a plumbed machine the inlet temperature will vary from summer to winter, in many cases this is only some 5F up and down. For a water tank machine the water tank temperature will vary from room temperature 70F (when starting the machine) to maybe 140F (when the machine has been running for some hours). This variation will directly affect the out-temperature of the HX and add another complexity to the brew heat control. This is very interesting when you study the Izzo Duetto where you can choose plumped in or water tank operation - is the HX designed for 55F inlet temperature or 140F inlet temperature? It can not be designed for both temperatures I would say...

Since most of the HX-e61 out there is vibe-water tank the general conclusions has become:

1. The group head on HX will always be too hot
2. I need to cool down the group head with a cooling flush

I think this is a result of above stated problems with the vibe-water tank design and is, to a large extent, avoided on a plumped in machine with rotary pump. I think a HX-e61 should be plumbed in with rotary pump in order to get best out of the HX-e61 concept. I also think that a PID saturated brew head design is better than the HX-e61 design, but the HX-e61 is far more fascinating piece of engineering.

I have no proof of this and all above stated can be totally wrong.

Stadler wrote: For a balanced thermosyphon you just do a "flush" which is flushing the superheated thermosyphon-water out from the pipes but you are not trying to change the group temperature by flushing for a long time.

In my experience (which relates to an Elektra A3), it seems that flushing the superheated water overheats the grouphead which in turns needs to be cooled down.
I have like many others a thermocouple placed in the grouphead inside one of the tiny holes of the diffuser where it regularly shows 90C when the machine has been idle for a while. Flushing the water until the end of the "water dance" the temperature will jump to about 104C and stay there. I need to keep flushing for several seconds more for the temperature to drop back to whatever value I want before pulling the shot.

Stadler wrote:When the water pressure in the thermosyphon is lower than the boiler pressure (as for vibe-water tank HX-e61) the water in the thermosyphon can start to boil and you get blend of steam and water in thermosyphon.

No, this is incorrect. The thermsyphon is a closed system with no steam, otherwise the thermosyphon would stall.

Stadler wrote:The second thing with water tank HX-e61 machines is that I think the variation in tank water temperature is too high in order to get stable brew temperature.

The brew temperature of any espresso machine will suffer if the incoming water temperature varies from one moment to the next unless it has a mega-huge boiler. Most prosumer/semi-commercial single boilers are less than a liter. It doesn't take a lot of 70F or 140F water to throw the brew temperature off. That said, I agree HX espresso machines are more vulnerable to inlet water temperature variation.

Stadler wrote:1. The group head on HX will always be too hot and 2. I need to cool down the group head with a cooling flush

If only it were only so simple.

Stadler wrote:I have no proof of this and all above stated can be totally wrong.

I was about to write that I don't agree with your assertions, but more precisely, I don't agree with arguing specifications. Your conclusion, to paraphrase the form, is essentially "I think result A is, to a large extent, avoided by B. I think C should be done in order to get best out of D. I also think that design E is better than the design F." I cannot judge which, if any, of these claims are backed by actual experience.

In my opinion, there is no substitute for hands-on experience. Arguing the superiority of one design over another based on specifications and abstract measures is pointless (Pressure profiles, preinfusion and the forgiveness factor documents one such "ah ha" experience).

HB wrote:The brew temperature of any espresso machine will suffer if the incoming water temperature varies from one moment to the next unless it has a mega-huge boiler.

Or if it has pre-heating of some type (Mistral, GS3, etc).