Taylor GH thermometer w Andreja (E61 HX), cooling flush idle times/temps observations

I've been using a Quckimill Andreja for 6+ years. Also Macap stepless, home roasting 6+ years Hottop & Behmor. Beans always <7 days old, usually roast to just before 2nd, or first signs of 2nd. (Full City +?)

I just bought and installed the Taylor digital thermometer from Chris Coffee a week ago. It goes into the center of any exposed E61 grouphead. It's very small (1.3"w) so it doesn't detract from the look of the machine much. It's digital but not thermocouple so there is a little lag.

What an eye opener. For years, I've just preheated, done my 20 second cooling flush, then run my shot which is OK, but if you run subsequent shots, I discovered I need to let my machine recover a minimum of 10 minutes, or until the idle temp reads 202 and preferably higher. Then another shorter cooling flush (5-15"), wait 30 seconds then pull the shot.

So I made a chart that has warmup time, or between shot recovery time and idle temp. Then it shows the cooling flush time and temp curve. Then the wait 30 seconds with a new idle temp, then the shot time temp curve. But I've found the rebound time for subsequent shots something not discussed much, but critical to my results.

Other docs I've read suggest a second shot does not need much or any recovery time, so I'm wondering if I have any issues with my machine. It makes abundant steam and the pstat and boiler pressures are reasonable. I get a very slow leak of about 0.5 fluid oz into the drip trey from the OPV. Not sure if this is the cause or not. I've replaced some warn cams in the GH, but haven't descaled every. Do backflush every week and every month with cleaner.

I have my Andreja direct plumbed into a water filter. I'm wondering if running a cooling flush and a shot pulls water in that it too cold for a quick turnaround? It's winter hear in Michigan and my cold water is cold! 45-60f depending on how long it's been running. I wonder if I can disconnect the direct plum line and put it into a bowl of water to test incoming water temps? Or does it need to have water under pressure?

Here are some things I've learned after making charts of cooling flush, idle times, idle temps etc, with the help of this thermometer.

First shot of the day, warmup 45 minutes, 15 second cooling flush, 30 second wait, pull shot, good curve max 206f, levels at 201.

A subsequent shot for the wife requires at least 10 minute recovery time for the boiler temp. The idle temp comes up to about 205f. Then I can do a cooling flush about 12 seconds. I watch for the temp to peak during the flush, then when it just start to fall I stop.

Always wait 30 seconds from end of flush to pull shot.
Always do a cooling flush or the curve is way high, then way low at the end.

A 3d subsequent shot (kids) requires a little longer recovery time. 13 minutes brings the idle temp to about 202 which I've found is just enough for a good shot curve. It's strange that it would take probably 20 minutes to get back to the initial idle temp of 210 or so.

More Notes:
-Ignore any idle temps above 202 either before cooling flush or just before shot. Worry about temps below 202
-you always need to do a cooling flush as far as I can tell. Otherwise you get a huge temp spike at the beginning of the shot.
-observe after a shot, the idle temp drops lower and lower caused by reverse thermosyphon. After about 2 minutes it reverses and the temps slowly rise.

Is this just my situation, or do other HX users have a 10 minute plus recovery time after the first shot, leading up to a second shot?

... Aaron

I discovered I need to let my machine recover a minimum of 10 minutes, or until the idle temp reads 202 and preferably higher. Then another shorter cooling flush (5-15"), wait 30 seconds then pull the shot.

That's waaaaay too long and a much higher temperature than what would be "recommended". Did you download the manual for the thermometer? If not, it is also available at the FTP site below my sig.

As a reasonable general rule, all espresso machines in the Andreja class should be warmed up for a minimum of 45 minutes and, preferably 60 minutes. At that time the thermometer should read AROUND 211-212 F depending on your particular boiler pressure range.

The shot time interval for a machine of this class is about 120 seconds as measured from the beginning of one shot to the beginning of the next. This time could be shortened a bit depending upon the particular coffee and your particular sensitivity to the effects of temperature. It can be extended a bit by increasing the normal screen flush at the conclusion of a shot from 1-2 seconds to 2-3 seconds.

I get a very slow leak of about 0.5 fluid oz into the drip trey from the OPV.

There should be more than that for a typical shot - about 1.5 ounches would be reasonable. What does your brew pressure gage read when you are backflushing the machine?

You are more than welcome to give me a call at 301-587-5033 to discuss your particular situation.

Hi, Thanks for the reply. Yes I read the manual for the thermometer. Also read a lot of other documents.

If I pull the first shot of the day. Cooling flush for about 15 seconds, wait 30 seconds, pull shot. Then I must let the machine sit idle for at least 10 minutes. I've tried 5 minute, with a shorter flush of 7 seconds, then wait 30 seconds, then pull shot. With this shorter 5 minutes between shot idle time the shot starts 197, jumps to 205 at about 5 seconds in, then drops to 202 at 10 seconds, then 199 at 15", 197 at 20", 195 at 25 seconds. Isn't that a bit too cool? Because it means the temp at the puck even cooler. If I had waited 2 minutes it goes much cooler.

My first shot of the day today after 1 hour warmup and 112f: Cooling flush: 15" cool flush (max 116f, minimum 205 and falling fast at 15") Waited 30 seconds, idle temp was 206f. Started shot (Ilubabor SO) temp jumped to max 206, then at 10" 204, 15"203, 20" 201, 25" 200. Isn't that better than the above times?

One misunderstanding "I get a very slow leak of about 0.5 fluid oz into the drip trey from the OPV" This actually is about 1/4oz and it's during idle time or initial warmup.

Yes my machine shows about 112f after an hour warmup. My blind PF shot reads at the top of the green at 10. The brew pressure gauge cycles between 1.2 and 1.4. when the machine is idle.

This behavior seems the same as this thread: Slow group temperature rebound on Isomac Rituale

Sorry, there was not an icon to quote. ... Aaron

Heh Heh Heh,

Prepare to go crazy my friend. That therm that Eric made is the best thing to buy for an E61 HX espresso machine. Assuming you don't try and REALLY fully grasp what is going on, that is.

No really though, you can drive yourself into a hole of self doubt before you realize that all you're doing is going in curcles, with all the different ways you can utilize this thermometer, and a cooling flush. The possibilities are endless.

Allow me to outline, simply, the routine I followed for both the Quickmill Anita, and the Quickmill Andreja Premium, when I owned them. I owned the Anita a while back, and the OPV was on the hot side of the HX. I owned the Andreja much more recently(sold it just last month), and it had the OPV on the cold side of the HX. I noticed little differences, nothing major, and Im not sure I understand one way or the other, suffice to say, the operation of the two styles of OPV placement machines is quite similar, if not the same.


--This assumes your boiler pressure is average. Topping out at 1.35bar, or thereabouts. If you run real hot, or real cool, this flush technique won't work.

-Machine heats up for 1 hour minimum. I left on 24/7
-Walk up to machine. Therm reads ~212/214F.
-Flush grouphead into container. Therm reading will climb to about 216F, and then drop back down. Stop at 212F. (I do all flushing into a container because the AP drip tray is on the small side, and fills up quickly)
-Weigh out beans.
-Add to grinder. Grind. Thwack. Sweep. Brush. Thwack.
-Quickly WDT
-Nutate Tamp

The point is, I didnt take forever to prep the shot, but its a little bit longer then say if you had a K30/grind on demand, where its just grind tamp done. Id say there is probably 2 minutes from stopping the flush at 212F, to being done with tamping. But even if there is 1, or 5 or 7, its fine. That first flush is just to get things flowing, get fresh water into the HX, and cool down the very hot E61 grouphead a little bit.

Now, you're ready to pull your shot. Portafilter is prepped, grounds are waiting to give you their essence. Lets do it.

-Flush. You will see flash boiling, then it will calm down. Flush until the therm reads 205F, the STOP.
-Count to 10
-Lock in and pull.

This should get you around 198F during the shot(so like, 202-201 on the therm, during the shot) IIRC, and this was my dial in flush. I would try this first, and then adjust based on what the coffee tasted like....

Needs to be cooler or hotter
-The two things which you change to get the shot temp hotter, or colder, is the length of the flush, and how long you wait from stopping the flush to pulling the shot.

-The range for the flush, for me, was 201F to 208F
-The range for wait time, for me, was nothing at all, to 45 seconds.

Using a combination of flushing to a number, and then waiting X amount of time, you can get pretty much any temp you're going to need. So for example..

Really Hot Shot Temp
-Flush to 208F
-Pull right away, or even do a 10 count.
-----OR-----
-Flush to 203/204F
-Wait 30-40seconds, then pull


My usual routine was to try to dial in using the first technique outlined above, and then adjust from there. I preffered to use rebound times on the shorter side.. 15seconds at the most, so I would flush accordingly. I found that when I tried to use a longer wait time with the appropriate flush to get me shot temp, I would usually overshoot and either be too hot, or too cold.



-So for the TL;DR crowd(or If I got rambly)
-With a hot machine, walk up and flush some water to get everything flowing and fresh.
-Prep your portafilter ready to go
-Flush the group so that the therm reads anywhere from 210 to 200, and use rebound times in the range of 0-40seconds.
-A combination of those two will get you a range of usable shot temps.
-Flushing to 204-205F and waiting 10-15seconds is a good place to start, and will work nicely for most popular blends.

My approach isn't that much different than yours for my initial shot of the day. But can you pull one shot after the other, or do your temps drop such that you have to wait at least 5 to 10 minutes for the idle temps to recover? I'm wondering if I have problems with my Andreja, or maybe my incoming direct water line is too cold at 45-55f causing too much cooling for the machine to keep up with.

Thanks for all the other info. Yes the thermometer is great for an HX machine. It really pushed me into figuring out what is happening with the water path which I can now mostly visualize. It looks like with an HX machine, the boiler water doesn't mix with the brew water correct? When I pull a shot, it just moves water into the machine from the water line, then through the boiler in pipes that get heated by the hot boiler water, then into the grouphead.

.. Aaron

Take a look at the appropriate illustrations here: http://users.rcn.com/erics/Illustrations/

used with my alex hx after cooling shot and 1st flush around 6oz I can pull consecutive shots with a 3 to 4 oz cooling flush within the time it takes to prepare my next shot flushing until between 205-210 depending on what shot profile I'm shooting for. If I wait any longer than that to pull a shot I would be back to a 6oz cooling flush for same temp range. also recently used erics thermometer to check my duetto to see if the offset was still true after doing a descale,it was spot on.

Yes, I can pull subsequent shots. Pretty much following the same flush routine, just the water amount is less, and the temp won't spike as high at the start,

So, after pulling the shot, Id flush/scrub the group real quick, then go to my cup. Swirl it, smell it, drink it. Then, go to the sink(right next to machine), and wash the cup. Dry the cup. Put it back on the machine.

I can then go right to weighing out my beans for the next shot.


I suppose if your using a grind on demand grinder, and trying to go as fast as possible, you could get ahead of the machine, but in all the time I used them, when I was making coffee for me, I never got ahead of the machine. One time I did, but I was pumping out latte's for guest, and I had a helper prepping baskets.

It sounds like you are still using times to determine flush amount and delays. With the thermometer you should rely on temperatures instead. I use an approach similar to Jman's that was outlined in the Quickmill Vetrano's Buyers Guide:

1) If machine was idle more than 10 minutes, flush to about boiling give or take (~212F) to get rid of overheated water.
2) get portafilter/cups/etc ready (couple minutes to do this)
3) flush to 197F
4) wait 30 seconds and start pull
I adjust the 30 second delay in step 4 to adjust temperature (shorter delay for lower temperature, longer for higher).

I skip step 1 for subsequent shots and they have much shorter flushes in step 3 (unless 10 minutes or more has passed). Otherwise they are the same.

One thing I should try is Jman's recommendation to vary the flush to temperature as well as the delay.
Of course the machine has warmed up for the required time before any of this.

Thanks for all the help everyone. Correct me if I'm wrong. During the actual pull, the temp to shoot for is around 202 after the initial peak settles?

I am following all the advice here. 1 hour warm up, cooling flush till the thermometer peaks then drops to about 108 or so which is roughly 3 fluid oz and between 7 and 18 seconds depending how hot things are. Then wait about 30 seconds and pull the shot.

Here are my results
AFTER 1 HOUR WARM UP
Cooling flush: till temp read about 205, 15 seconds.
Wait after Flush: 30 seconds
Pull shot, temp max 206, then at 10 seconds 202, at 15 seconds 201, at 20 secs 200, at 25secs 197
I would guess this are good temps correct?

SECOND SHOT: it's been 2.2 minutes since above shot
Cooling Flush: till temp peaks, then drops to 205 (9 seconds) I guess I should have stopped earlier
Wait after Flush: 30 seconds
Pull shot, temp maxed at 201, then at 10 seconds it was 200, at 15 secs it was 198, 20 secs 196, 25=193

The second shot above is kind of cold correct? Wouldn't you consider this too cool especially at the tail end? I can not do these subsequent shots and get the higher temp results without waiting at least 10 minutes shot to shot idle time.

So if this is all correct, my machine is not functioning properly. Maybe too cool water enter then tank? Or maybe major descaling needed?

Any insights as to my problem? ... Aaron