Hi guys,

I'm trying to fix up a 2 group faema e61. Both groups leak under pressure from the bottom of the group where it would normally discharge the excess pressure at the end of the shot. The line pressure here is quite high at 5 bar. With a backflush disc in, there is no leak at 5 bar at the 'pre-infusion' mid-point, but when the pump is engaged and the pressure increases to 9 bar, there is a steady flow of leakage/water. If the lever is left at this mid-point position and the pump activated by pressing the microswitch (ie no moving of the cam) it starts to leak. Despite this leak, when the shot is ended, there is still a discharge of excess pressure/water. The same occurs when making a coffee. I have replaced all 3 seals inside both the groups thinking they were the culprit, being 9 years old they were reasonably stiff, but alas no change. I'm a little lost now, could it be the springs are too old/fatigued now? able to hold 5 bar but not 9 plus? The machine has been in a garage for several years unused and was only lightly scaled, but thats all been removed now...

Both groups are behaving the same, which is a little curious. I don't believe I've put anything back together incorrectly, but its a possibility. I don't know if it behaved this way before I started pulling it apart, as at that time I had no power hooked up for it.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Cheers, Chris

Chris it is the springs. I have them somewhere. Drop me an email.

E61 legend?

Paul

Thanks Paul. That makes sense. I guess if it was stored somewhere for a couple of years (or more) with the levers in the 'off' position, it would compress the bottom two springs.

I'm actually in NZ at the moment, so I'll try my luck with the local tech where I got the seals, but if that fails I might take you up on the offer thanks.

2001 Legend, bit of project for me to get my hands dirty on, and cut up for that matter!

Out of interest, does the original e61 have variable flow restrictors on the thermosyphon line? Cool idea, but one was quite badly scaled up. Not enough to choke the line, under pump pressure the flow rate was still OK, but I could tell something was wrong when one group was taking alot longer to warm up than the other.

Cheers, Chris

I'd be a little leary of the exhaust spring going weak enough to not effect a seal. If nothing else, you can always shim the spring with thin stainless washers SIMILAR to Rancilio in the version 2(?) Silvia OPV. Even with the lever in the brew position, that exhaust valve "nut" can require some force to put it in the threading position.



Those parts which make up the E-61 valve assemblies have slightly different lengths depending on the machine - maybe someone used the wrong parts at one time.

Thanks Eric and Paul. I've found some springs through the Faema distributor in NZ and they are on their way to me now. My money is on the lower spring being the culprit, but I ordered 2 sets of all 3 springs to be sure. Expensive for little springs, but not expensive for machine parts, if you know what I mean.

Eric - yes I agree it does seem a bit unusual to have to replace that spring, but I found out the hard way years ago. I got all the parts in except that spring and had both groups leak, I had to stretch the old springs as a cowboy repair until the new ones came with my next parts order.

I put it down to the fact that these springs spend 99.9% of their life compressed which is why they fail.

Also like you mentioned there could be so many variants of these internal bits around these days that they get mixed up, VBM vs. Faema etc...

Chris - Hope it works out, as long as you have replaced the seals and it is clean inside my money is on the spring. BTW I think it is only around the time of the legend rebirth that they used that needle valve to regulate temp. Before that it was small round restrictors you put in the copper pipes.

Just some more info for the thread:

. . . they get mixed up, VBM vs. Faema etc...

Ironically, I was thinking of the Vibiemme when I made my comment about someone using the wrong parts with differing dimensions as I know for sure that there is a difference between Vibiemme and the Quickmill line of E-61 heads. But there is also a marked difference (on the exhaust valve) between these and the Faema (current?) grouphead.

The Faema exhaust valve assembly (20.3 mm) is about 7 mm shorter than the Quickmill assembly (27.3 mm). A part substitution here would almost guarantee a partially open exhaust valve at all times.

As far as the adjustable thermosyphon valve goes, here's a pic of one I purchased a few years ago that I subsequently modified for a gentleman in Australia with a Bricoletta.



edit - And I, like Paul, hope that the springs solve the problem. I'm also surprised not to see any quality pics from you Chris - a la your F-O-T TMFR adventure

Great picture (as always), thanks. I freed up the scale in it, but I hadn't actually pulled the SS valve out but I'll do that now.

Hadn't posted pics as was having camera trouble, and frankly others have had to do a much better job that what I am doing, as the machine arrived in fairly good nick - luck of the draw really. It did survive storage for many years full of water and had no sooner arrived in Christchurch and was hammered with the 7.1 earthquake as well... built solid.







And then the moment of truth came, and all was fairly good. I could tell from the fittings the machine had been used with a water filter of some kind, but who knows how long since it had been changed etc. Nonetheless, not much scale at all in the boiler.





The boiler sight gauge was grotty and needed a rebuild, apparently a common theme with the machines.

Standard caked on boiler gasket



Ridiculously difficult to remove dispersion screw. The slot in it is very thin, shallow and curved so that no screwdriver will work! Ended up taking out the three hex nuts and building a wrench with three screws on a bit of wood and unscrewing the whole lot that way. Spoke to a Faema tech in NZ and he even said he build a tool himself for servicing them.



The descaled thermosyphon restrictor, surprising that this is in the full open (maximum hot) position. The HXs themselves are big, a rough guess probably 500mls or more judging by the amount of water that came out when I removed the bottom loop. It was easy to tell something was up with this one, as the RH group was slow to warm up, despite the fact that the group flow rate was still ok.



People have talked about the better temp stability of some e61 systems, this and Kees, maybe its because the group is always fed superheated water (ie not a flush requirement) but because of the more controllable group temp, its stabilised to bring the incoming water temp down appropriately. Just thoughts, but judging from the flow rate through the group which also has a restrictor, I'm not sure you could 'outrun' the HX in a cooling flush.

Anyhow, due to the relative lack of scale and shortage of time on holiday with little kids, I decided to descale the boiler and HXs in situ which seems to have worked well. I've had to pull a few lines to descale individually, and dismantle both groupheads totally, but all in all a pretty smooth run... thats on the assumption the leak in both groups is from 'tired' springs.

The case and back panel/lights have all cleaned up pretty well. I'll post some pics once its all back together and powered up with lights...

Cheers, Chris

. . . and he even said he build a tool himself for servicing them.

I understand



This is a "combo" tool for removing the dispersion screen/gasket and unscrewing the dispersion screw itself.