Espin wrote:If I someone's coffee gear cost them more than the premium they would pay to drink coffee in a cafe for a year, I would feel that would be excessive.

....

So from that, if my home setup cost more than $3960, I'd be concerned. And, since I don't value my time (yet you might), your math may be different. It also doesn't factor in the quality degradation for trying to transport the coffee home, nor the cost of having to put on pants (and any other lifestyle effects you might choose to factor in).

I must say I appreciated your math as thoughtful yet humorous, and I appreciated your 'CYA' at the end even more; I just wanted to toss in a couple of other factors that are really big for some of us. First of all, why a single year? nice coffee gear typically lasts dramatically longer than that, so it would make more sense to factor in your maintenance cost on the machine over several years and factor that in.

Beyond that, I think the biggest factor is the simple lack of availability of decent cafés for lots of people. I've only got one that I know of that's even close to my standards, and I live in the 4th largest city in the country. 3rd Wave shops can be hard to find, and seem nonexistent in a lot of the country.

Another significant one is, are you into making espresso yourself? I find the experience and art of making my own espresso to be extremely satisfying; it extends far beyond the few dollars I save by making it myself rather than having a barista do it for me. It's difficult to imagine how I would quantify that, and I think that a lot of people in this forum are on a similar page--having an espresso setup is about a lot more than avoiding a trip to the cafe, which your accounting suggests.

I'm yet to see these "coffee machine maths" as any more than a potential way to justify your purchase to a reluctant spouse. Granted, in that vein, your numbers are much bigger (better, therefore?) than any others I've seen, and they resonate with me somewhat, since I rarely go to cafés. When I do, it's good ones, and I tend to spend a lot ($8 ticket often) and tip well, like you. On the other hand, I wouldn't do that if I went every day. ~$4000 in a year is doable, but a pretty insane amount to spend at a café.

Which reminds me, one more factor in big machine purchases--if you don't trash your toys, they hold their value really well. A lot better than a few hundred consumed cups of coffee, that's for sure...

Endo wrote:Knowing what I know now, I would stop at a Alexia/PID and a Baratza Vario combo. Small footprint. No overkill. Great taste. Half the price.

My milk drinks would slow down but heck.... the guests are happy with drip as long as it's topped with whipped cream.

Endo,

Keeping in mind my setup of 20+ years was a Gaggia Coffee paired with a Gaggia MDF grinder, I have to say that I would still (possibly) be happy with that IF I hadn't stumbled upon this site (and CG). Without that, I (probably) never would have gone into "third wave" cafés and realized how poor the quality of my espresso at home truly was. After all, I never liked Starbucks; I did like Peet's; and my coffee was at least as good as what I was getting there. But one taste of the espresso made at cafés like Vivace, Verve, Blue Bottle, Victrola, Flying Goat, and others made me see the light. So I am positive I would have upgraded from that setup.

My espresso machine ownership to date has been as follows:

• La Pavoni Europiccola lever;
• Gaggia Coffee semi-auto;
• Ala di Vittoria La Valentina auto;
• Olympia Cafferex semi-auto;
• Arrarex Caravel lever;
• Elektra "Sixties" T1 auto.

I still own the last four, and should sell two. I know the Caravel will eventually go, because I just don't use it enough, and I honestly cannot make up my mind between keeping the La Val or the Cafferex. But I know I won't downgrade from my T1, nor do I have any desire to upgrade . . .

My grinder ownership to date has been as follows:

• Krups blade grinder;
• Gaggia MDF;
• Mazzer Mini;
• Cimbali Max Hybrid;
• Nuova Simonelli MCF;
• La Pavoni PA;
• Mahlkönig K30 Vario.

Again, I still own the last four. The MCF will eventually go. I will continue to use the Cimbali in my office and the Mahlkönig at home. I use the PA for making French press when I travel. But I admit there is not a huge jump in quality in the cup between the Cimbali and the Mahlkönig -- certainly not like there was when I upgraded to the Cimbali from the Mazzer. Still, I wouldn't want to give up the speed, the quiet, and the convenience of the Mahlkönig . . .

Je suis contenu.

Cheers,
Jason

P.S. My guests would never be content with drip -- with or withour the whipped cream!

William,

Espin wrote:Yes, (y)our toys will have resale value - but you can't count on them holding all of their value indefinitely, nor on there being an interested buyer when (if) you need to sell it. The AI thermal controllers which will be all rage in six years won't retrofit properly onto some of the current models, so they just won't be as desirable as they are now, and the current generation of mechanical grinders just don't produce the same consistency and allow for the same expression that the ultrasonic powderers (available in about 17 years) will.

All that is true, and there will be some that will lust after those AI thermal controllers, or the ultrasonic grinders. There are also, however, those who won't. I might "lust" but I probably wouldn't "jump."

As far as resale value is concerned, that's only important if you intend on reselling them -- if and when you upgrade. Indeed, if you are replacing a worn-out machine after years of valuable service, resale value is less of a concern. If you're like me, I run my cars into the ground. A Toyota with 325,000 "original owner" miles on it (or -- go ahead and laugh! -- a Renault R5 GTL* with 274,000 "original owner" miles) isn't worth much at trade-in time.

Let's say, just for the sake of discussion, that my coffee costs $18.50/lb. deliverd. One pound equals 454 grams. I pull mostly doubles at 14.0-14.5 grams. Let's say I get 30 doubles per pound (30 doubles * 14.5 grams = 435 grams, and the rest spills on the ground). My coffee cost per drink is thus 62¢, regardless of whether I'm making an espresso, a cappuccino, or a latte. Let's say that I use eight ounces of milk (before steaming) in a latte. My milk cost is then approximately 44¢ per latte. So an espresso costs me (in raw material) 62¢, and a latte costs me $1.06.

I pull roughly three espressos (that's American English for "espressi") and two lattes at home Monday through Friday, maybe five and three on weekend days. Raw material costs per year: $1,321.84 in coffee; $366.08 in milk. Total: $1,687.92.

Since I don't have a "kill-o-watt" device, I am honestly not sure how to measure my cost-of-operation in terms of the electricity needed to run the espresso machine and grinder. Nor do I know how to calculate my cost of water, or the cost(s) of cleaners, brushes, and other "disposables" I go through in operating my machine. I know what the tamper, knockbox, and other "incidental" devices cost me. They don't really wear out, do they? OK, the rubber covering the knockout bar will eventually, I suppose, but I got an extra one when I bought it and I still haven't needed to use it.

The grinder and the machine itself will last a lot longer than one year, indeed a lot longer than five years. (Yes, the burrs may need replacing, but the machinery itself should last at least that long. Heck, one of my espresso machines is working perfectly at 20 years of age; another is working perfectly at 15 or 16; and my brother-in-law is using my old Gaggia MDF that must be close to 25 years old!)

So if we take $4,000 as the cost of espresso machine and grinder . . .

The original Peet's Coffee & Tea is 1.65 miles from my house. Steeply downhill -- I can actually coast about 3/4 of the trip -- but it's steeply UPhill going back . . . like less than 5 MPG steep. Be that as it may, were I to buy my daily drinks at Peet's, let's say that would require two round trips per weekday. (Weekends would be double that.) That's 3.3 miles at 24¢/mi., or 79¢ per trip, or $739.44 per year.

A double espresso is $2.20 and a latte is $2.85 at Peet's. Total cost of drinks per year: $5,231.20.

Drinks + mileage = $5,970.64
Machine + Grinder + Raw Materials = $5,687.92. (Does not include electricity, water, and other "incidentals.")

Seems to me that I'm roughly "even" after 12 months. The costs for raw materials, electricity, water, etc. continue year-in, year-out. However, the costs for equipment (including tampers, kockboxes, etc.) do not, so I'll will certainly be ahead in my second year, and from then on . . .

What am I missing?

Cheers,
Jason

* aka "Le Car," though they didn't call them that in the States until the year after I bought mine.

Endo wrote:I think this makes the point missed by many newbies or people upgrading for the first time: If you are looking for great taste, you can get very close to the top for a little over $1000. After that, you're paying mostly for steaming convenience at the expense of counter space.

Actually, I don't think this point is missed as often as you think. And if it is, there are many regulars here who have repeatedly pointed out in response to countless inquiries that moving from "X" and "Y" results in a huge increase in quality, but moving from "Y" to "Z" is merely an incremental one.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I disagree with your figure of $1,000. I don't think it's a matter of a specific figure per se -- or at least not exclusively -- but rather of "class" -- I think we can all agree (or maybe not; sometimes reaching agreement here is akin to herding cats) that most if not all stock, unmodified, right-out-of-the-box "prosumer" machines represent a significant increase in quality over a stock, unmodified, right-out-of-the-box machine of the "strictly for home use/consumer" level, like for example a Gaggia Classic or a Rancilio Silvia. In contrast, the distinction between a pourover machine versus a plumbed-in model is certainly convenience; so, too, is the comparison between a semi-auto machine and which uses volumetric dosing one of convenience; and the difference between a vibe pump versus a rotary one has to do with noise levels. A larger boiler, which most often comes with a larger price tag, means more steaming power, which can be convenient but probably isn't a necessity. Neither is a DB over an HX, though it may be more convenient.

Cheers,
Jason

misterdoggy wrote:Those of us who try to justify spending on what we want by either 'savings' or whatever for either fooling themselves or our wives. Are you really in to it for the money ?? haha

Not in it for the money, Bruce, but when I realized how much I was spending at various cafés, that was the spark that got me started on the "upgrade path" from my 20-year old Gaggia setup. That, and this forum, was all it took! But moving from my La Val to the Elektra? From the Mazzer to the Cimbali to the Mahlkönig? Saving money had nothing to do with it!

misterdoggy wrote:IMHO downgrading can only be a possibility if the "level" of Downgrade still renders the excellent cup of coffee that we are all used to.

Absolutely! But then there is this . . .

misterdoggy wrote:I am contemplating upgrading to the GS3, but can't figure out how to introduce the subject to the wife as I just bought the Super Domobar a few months ago after reading about it on this site. But as I have read more and more I become more and more aware of the possibilities. Its calling to me like the Sirens and Ulysses, like a tractor beam off the Death Star pulling me towards my destiny...

Will the GS/3 be so much better in the cup than the Vibiemme that it is worth the extra €€€ ? Call me crazy, but I cannot believe the espresso will be that much better -- so what's your justification?

Cheers (and good luck!),
Jason