The gist of most the posts is that coffee is a hobby. Most Northamericans drink at least one coffee a day. My habit started over 30 years ago as a student to stay awake in class. I didn't appreciate espresso until 10 years later when my friends had the Cremina and I got one at Zabars but I was never able to make good espresso until I discovered cg and bought a Mazzer Mini. My voyage was solely about good coffee; there is nothing available in the area I live in. If I drink on average 2-3 espressos/day at a retail price of $2 and have a used Vetrano and a 5 year old grinder, has my investment been worth it or has it taken me into the hobby sphere? Refurbishing a used SJ, which is cheaper than buying it new, is as far as I go. I have a good income and do not aspire to a db or supertitan grinder and don't really consider this a hobby. My SO, a noncoffee person considers me a coffee snob and a nut.

Marvin

Endo wrote:As far as I'm concerned, I think $1500 separates the "I love coffee" crowd from the people my wife describes as "coffee machine nutballs"

Rather than characterize the owners as your wife has, I'll stipulate that the in-cup return on investment is dramatically smaller past the ~$1500 mark. Beyond that point most of the benefit is consistency, ease of use, higher forgiveness factor, greater capacity to serve crowds, etc.

On the other hand, I don't consider someone who spends more a "coffee machine nutball". What I've spent on espresso equipment would be considered chump change compared to other hobby/sports like photography, audio/video, bicycling, and golf. As a real life example, I only have to look to my father's pursuit. He races sailboats and what he's spent on his hobby would be enough to put a couple of my kids through college. To him, it's a wonderful source of pleasure and unquestionably the best investment of his life. To me, it's a tedious way to seasickness (sorry Dad!). Nobody begrudges him the pleasure of his hobby, or refers to him as a "sailboat nutball".

I have a PID Silvia and Rocky combo for I bet 10 years now. Recently upgraded the grinder but the Silvia is still a sore point.

I was reading feedback for the reason for the high end machines - "I make 2 espresso's a day and I want those to be perfect." This sums it up for me.

I have grand ideals of a Vivaldi II but I will probably have to settle for a Anita with pid.

Endo wrote:This might be a "over-simplification" but in your opinion, at what price point (espresso machine and grinder combined) does one switch over from just getting "great espresso and/or cappuccinos" to becoming a hobby/obsession?:D

I think you are accurate in sensing that the question is unanswerable. There are too many variables. What is my financial capacity? How much is what I am doing denying options for the rest of the family? Should I spend the money on socially responsible causes? How much is it worth to get as close to the "ultimate" as possible. What sense of satisfaction do I achieve from having equipment that makes is easy and fun to get the best out of the coffee.

All are values questions. There is no universal $1,500 set point for grinder and espresso maker. You can do substantially better than that in quality and consistency. As you go "up the chain" you spend more money to get smaller improvements. When to stop upgrading? That where the values questions kick in and they are as individual, I suspect, as the contributors to this forum.

Endo wrote:...the people my wife describes as "coffee machine nutballs"...

My wife liked your wife's comment.

I think the general public has an easier time understanding and accepting obsession towards hobbies like boating, cars, etc. Although I think Hi-Fi gear is a good comparison (that's one I don't get).

When someone has over 200lbs and $8000 of equipment in his Kitchen to make 1.5 oz of liquid (as tasty as it is), there is bound to be a lot more of this.

Still, I think most serious espresso hobbyists here have gotten over this a while ago. But for me, I'm still feeling a bit guilty.

Endo wrote:When someone has over 200lbs and $8000 of equipment in his Kitchen...

Of course I would say her kitchen.

Speaking of kitchens, I've learned to keep my mouth shut about my wife's desire to outfit ours in a manner befitting a four-star restaurant despite that our busy family life permits far less ambitious cuisine (example of what not to say: "Why do we need a Viking stove? A cheap Whirlpool stove boils water for hotdogs and macaroni & cheese just as well." ). In return, she's agreed not to roll her eyes too much when a big box arrives on our doorstep.

HB wrote:Of course I would say her kitchen.

Interesting choice of words.

As I mentioned earlier, my wife wants me to replace the 6-foot stainless steel professional kitchen prep table coffee bar with a custom-made bar with finished wood cabinets and a granite top.

She wants this to be designed and built so it will match her kitchen.

Hobbies are what makes life interesting. It isn't the cost-benefit ratio or the payoff, it's the journey toward being skilled, or even expert, at something. For my wife and I, we both have our passions... and excesses, so there is no complaints. Who wants to leave everything to the kids, anyway?

Mine (In descending order of ridiculous investment):
Antique cars: 1934 Auburn Phaeton, 1977 Mercedes SL (plus donating time as a docent at an auto museum)
Woodworking: Tools, tools, tools. Can't have enough.
Coffee: (over time) 4 roasters; 4 espresso machines; 5 vac pots including 2 antiques that are currently and have always been, nonfunctional; 3 grinders
Collection of Hand-carved Italian Pipes: Plus a custom display cabinet I had made in a village in China some years ago.

Hers: Captain of the Ladies Golf Club (How many $800 Drivers and $300 putters do you need, anyway?)

Both of ours: Rescuing Old English Sheepdogs (12 to date). Rescuing dogs may be inexpensive, but the Vet bills sure aren't.

no disrespect but what's suggested here ain't no different than owning a mercedes, being a member of "Mercedes Benz Enthusiast Forums" then after a year posting a message and saying "I'm driving my mercedes only twice a day and only for 5 minutes, instead I could have purchased a suziki, looking at my mercedes I feel guilty... ~a couple seconds silence here for the effect, then go on~ anyone consider selling their mercedes and buying a suziki?"

a question asked, now people feel obliged to give an answer cos most of them almost everyday give similar answers already either to their family or to their friends "in defence of their hobby, passion, curiosity" whatever you name it, it doesn't matter. IMO it's nobody's business where and how people spend their money. and what I hate most (no offence I'm not talking about endo here, speaking in general) some people visiting forums either only to judge or to evoke some guilty conscience. I'm not even mentioning those who promote some common sense to poor lost souls called geeks. it's always the same thing, even at a simple yo-yo forum, every now and then someone appears and says "there are hungry people out there but you give $xxx to a single yo-yo!!"... same logic, different subject, since we're talking about coffee and coffee machines --> do I need ultra expensive coffee machines? hell no, I even don't like drinking coffee as much as I like playing with it! but to be able to play with it as I please, I have this --compared to 99,9% of earth population-- expensive machine. will I downgrade? If "the need" appears I will. If the need appears to upgrade then I will upgrade. that is not a confession, that doesn't sound "brave" but you consider some similar answers here as "brave", which is quite confusing cos before you edited that message there was another line there, you were saying you may "downgrade" to elektra semiauto. huh?? it's like saying I have mercedes cl now but I consider "downgrading" to mercedes clk

hobby mobby fobby if you wanna do something real brave then I suggest visiting a cigar aficionado forum, and posting "I feel guilty that I spend so much on premium cigars, anyone consider downgrading to paper wrapped cigarillos?" do that, come back here with the feedback you get (which will include lots of *beeep* and *you being a girl or what?* questions from some "gentlemen" be assured of that) then we'll talk about "brave"

anyway, everybody has their own reasonable reasons for their own reasonable actions, when you're in a specialized on a single matter-high end forum like this, where people do crazy mods to their machine, custom woodworks, share some very detailed analysis, drill holes to their "expensive" portafilters, chop their grinder's hopper without a blink only because it doesn't fit under cabinet etc.. eh, only one in a thousand will consider your question as serious. so are you real sure you're asking the right question at the right place or this is an attempt at reverse psychology? If the latter then I don't think we need that, there are professionals out there whom we can pay for an hour per visit. but if you "really" feel guilty looking at your machine, then why live with it? guilt is a strong word and a strong feeling which is hard to bear most of the time. and why suggesting an alexia? it's only $700 less than what you own now. go sell it, buy a gaggia for much much less, buy lots of good coffee, I assure you'll still get very good results. I just served french press coffee to my mom and her friend, they were all giggles like little schoolgirls, "coffee coffee coffee beautiful coffee" what $25 bodum press and fresh-high quality coffee can do to people.

The Elektra semiauto seemed like a nice downgrade.... then I saw the price. Funny how these downgrades quickly become upgrades "the force is strong....must resist.....so shiny......eagle so pretty....stop me".

Endo wrote:The Elektra semiauto seemed like a nice downgrade.... then I saw the price. Funny how these downgrades quickly become upgrades "the force is strong....must resist.....so shiny......eagle so pretty....stop me".

Those two are different machines, but I don't think there are many who would say one was a clear upgrade from the other.

As to what price point is over the top I thought I'd already reached it when I picked up my Pavoni years ago. Most people wouldn't pay $600 for an espresso machine, not to mention over $100 on a grinder. If I hadn't found HB, I'd still be certain that I had reached the extreme. Then following a year or two of reading HB, last week I found the deal of a lifetime on the machine of my dreams, an Elektra Semiautomatica, and I redefined my bar (both the coffee bar and the bar for how high was a reasonable price to pay).

On the other hand, I may be very odd in that if I have a lot of people over I'll probably put my espresso equipment away as I love to use it and also to share it with those who love espresso, but I'd rather not advertise it. That is not quite downgrading, but it shares some sentiment.

dear endo, consider yourself lucky, upgrade or downgrade you're at a place where you can "choose" to purchase or not to purchase whatever you want as long as you have a valid credit card. If you were in turkiye looking at some prices you'd be taking huge gulps of air. Indeed you have several very dedicated vendors there (be it usa or canada or uk or australia). also there there's a serious market for second hand etc. Honestly all these years I met only one person and one company who's not after money but after quality and better coffee. Just for you to get an idea of what we're dealing here for better equipments and better coffee

Brasilia Mini Classic Espresso Machine $1,499.00 --> http://www.wholelattelove.com/Brasilia/ ... achine.cfm

same machine here $4,862.00

Now If any of you ever consider downgrading and upgrading at the same time, just leave a message, I'll give you the link for $4862.00 brasilia mini classic, the site says "shipping is free"

hard to speak for others, but for me, i want my coffee at home to taste like the coffee i have at my favorite coffee shop (though even it does have a few off days); i think it would be hard to reach that goal with a downgrade, plus new toys are always fun

the belief is that if you can upgrade the hardware, with the improved technique, you can repeat that same favorite cup at home; in my case, if you look at the total cost to make a single cup on most weekdays, its quite a lot, and thats even before the next upgrade

kahvedelisi wrote:dear endo, consider yourself lucky, upgrade or downgrade you're at a place where you can "choose" to purchase or not to purchase whatever you want as long as you have a valid credit card.

I'd never use credit to buy my espresso gear. Just too tempting with all those GS/3 photos being posted.

You bring up a good point. In most places in the world, these machines are out of reach for all but a few. So discussions like this about getting the best "bang for the buck" become even more important.

michael wrote:the belief is that if you can upgrade the hardware, with the improved technique, you can repeat that same favorite cup at home; in my case, if you look at the total cost to make a single cup on most weekdays, its quite a lot

I heard that cost argument before (it's the one I try and use on my wife). I think my "break-even year" was about 2025 last time she calculated.

My original dream machine was the Speedster. Then I heard about the new pressure-profilable LM, and I started considering a 2-group version of it as my new dream machine.

Reading this thread makes me want to consider settling for less than my current dream machine but one that is still worth dreaming of...

Sooooo, forget about steam, anyone knows of a lever machine that has a saturated & PIDed group, an adjustable maximum brew-pressure, a brew-pressure gauge, direct plumbing connections (I don't mind a manual boiler fill), designed to be easily descaled frequently, takes a standard portafilter, can be left on 24/7, amble space inside, SS components.... you know, all the good stuff, without steam or memorized pressure profiles?

I, of course, can change my mind if LM ever added temp-profilability too to their new offering .

When you roast your own, you have an amazing multi-level hobby; it becomes more about the coffees and less about the machines. When you don't, you're limited to 3, 5 or 7 blends and your enthusiasm for changing extraction variables(a.k.a. upgrading or tinkering!!!) gets capped.

The green coffee varieties available to us today (and, hopefully, more tomorrow) are never-ending; and therefore the desire for better extraction systems.

There's not doubt that what I do with coffee is over the top.

But what can I say? I'm having a whale of a time

Those little moments that punctuate the day and let me breathe a short break of pure reflection and pleasure, they're invaluable.

No, I have absolutely no intention of downgrading.

Cheers

Mike

coffee.me wrote:When you roast your own, you have an amazing multi-level hobby; it becomes more about the coffees and less about the machines.

I couldn't have said it better himself!!

I am glad I let this one simmer a little before adding any comments.

I would never consider downgrading. By its very definition this means accepting a lesser result. I don't think that is the intent of this discussion. I think what the OP was getting at is he feels he may have too much gear for his habit and it is not a good fit to his usage.

"Coffee Machine Nutballs Anonymous"

Speculation warning

To the average coffee drinker I would say the minimum buy in to qualify for "coffee machine nutball" is way lower than $1,500. I'll bet if you walk into Denny's or Dunkin Donuts and ask the average American coffee drinker how much a good coffee machine or espresso machine costs, you would get a sub 100.00 answer from 80% or more of the consumers polled. Based on this average, the nutball buy in starts at about 300 % above that. So to the average consumer a 300.00 machine plus a 150.00 grinder would certainly be in the nutball range.

/Speculation

The gear sitting on my counter retails for just under 2000.00. Am I a nut ball? Not even close. I am not bragging about the cost of my gear but I am also not ashamed of it. The gear is what it is. It represents a reasonable definition of what is necessary to make the quality of coffee that I want to serve in my house, with the convenience I expect.

Can a Gaggia Classic paired with a good grinder make good espresso? Yes it can. Can it make the quality of coffee that I want to serve on a consistent basis? No it cannot, and it certainly can't do it with the convenience I expect. I know because I have one. It makes better espresso than any of the machines I owned before it, but it does not compare to the Brute. It would be unreasonable to expect an espresso machine with a 3.5 oz boiler to compete with a machine equipped with a 1.7 liter boiler, given all other variables are the same, and they aren't. Not even if the same person is pulling the shots.

This was started as a downgrade thread, when IMO what should have been asked was "given my usage pattern do you think an Alexia with a PID would be a better fit than a Vivaldi II" To which I believe the answer is yes. Do I think the Alexia is a down grade from a Vivaldi? Nope. Not to someone who is interested in straight espresso. Another good question would be what is a great grinder for someone who is only going to make 4 shots a day?

In order for something to be an upgrade you must be able to detect a positive difference, if you cannot detect a positive difference than it is not an upgrade. If you cannot definitively state that coffee produced from machine a, is better than machine b, then they should be regarded as equal to you. If you cannot appreciate the difference in using machine a, over machine b, then they should be regarded as equal to you. If the improvement is marginal then it is time to evaluate whether the perceived improvement is worth the added investment.

I am sure there is a limit to what I will be able to detect in coffee quality and improved usage convenience and what I am willing to pay for. I do not see a Robur / GS3 in my future. I think I have hit the limit with the espresso machine. I believe there is still another step to be made with my grinder. I want to spend less time making drinks and the only way I see that I can do that is with a faster grinder. But that faster grinder will not be a Robur, I don't need 20grams in 2 seconds, but I would like 20 grams in 10 seconds.

Am I saying the Brewtus is equal to the GS3? I most certainly am not. They are not even in the same class. But I don't think I could detect enough difference in taste or convenience to convince my wallet to give up the cash for it. And I certainly don't need a machine with the capacity of the GS3. Because of these things I happily don't entertain the idea of ever having to save the money or come up with the sales pitch for my wife to allow me to buy one.

For me the ultimate goal is not to have the best gear, or gear that is on the bleeding edge of technology, or bragging rights over all of the people still using outdated equipment. The ultimate goal is to find the right gear for me. The only way to really do this is to understand my usage desires, and understand the capabilities of the equipment that is available.

Endo wrote:This might be a "over-simplification" but in your opinion, at what price point (espresso machine and grinder combined) does one switch over from just getting "great espresso and/or cappuccinos" to becoming a hobby/obsession?

If I someone's coffee gear cost them more than the premium they would pay to drink coffee in a cafe for a year, I would feel that would be excessive.

50 weeks a year (vacations don't count)
Average drinks per service (a coffee for my wife and myself = 2)
Average services per week (morning coffees every day, plus a few extras on weekends = 10)
Distance to nearest good cafe = 4 miles
Doubled, because I need to get back home, too = 8 miles * $.24 mileage rate = $1.92 (IRS 2009 medical mileage reimbursement rate; coffee is a drug -- err, medication)
It takes me about 12 minutes to get there, typically (doubled in later math)
I almost never have to wait in line, so I'm not adding that time
It takes me about 10 minutes to make a coffee at home (milk prep is time consuming) differential time is then 14 minutes, multiplied by my conservative valuation of my time (it's my free time, so my time is free!) ($0/hr) = $0.
let's say I get $6 of drinks at the cafe, plus $2 tip because I'm a nice guy ($8)
at home, my beans might cost $1.50, and milk another $.50 for those drinks (these are somewhat high estimates - if we go with $12 per pound for coffee, it's about $.95 for coffee (36 grams), and figure $2 for a half gallon of milk, but then i use about 9 ounces for the drinks so it's actually about $.29 for milk))

From all that, I get that each trip to the cafe instead of making it myself (for me) is a premium cost of ($1.92 + $8.00 - $2.00) is $7.92. Ten trips a week = $79.20. 50 weeks a year is $3960.

So from that, if my home setup cost more than $3960, I'd be concerned. And, since I don't value my time (yet you might), your math may be different. It also doesn't factor in the quality degradation for trying to transport the coffee home, nor the cost of having to put on pants (and any other lifestyle effects you might choose to factor in).