Endo wrote:
One thing that struck me was that with a simple machine like a $1100 Alexia/PID is you basically get the equivalent of something like the Alex Duetto II, but with reduced steam capability. The espresso taste is identical.

So basically you're paying an extra $1200 for faster milk drinks (which most people claim is only for the wife or guests). That's a LOT for a slightly faster milk bubbler....

Unless you are a Latte maniac or "die-hard" espresso hobbyist, the only other reasons I can see for people investing that much cash and counter space is for kitchen bragging rights, rich newbie misdirection, or barista wanna-be clout.

I thought a lot about the Alexia, but it isn't really 1100 with a PID - at least not in the US. Here it is roughly 1400+ with a PID as far as I can tell. A lot of machine for the money, but are the Alex and Anita even more machine for about the same price? (Being an 80% espresso person I never could decide). Upgrading to the Duetto you get a plumb in or out machine with autofill, instant steam, etc for $600-700 more. The Mini Vivaldi is only $500 more. None of the machines including the Alexia qualify as humble or cheap.

As for the last part I'm curious why did you do buy a Vivaldi - was it one of those reasons? I'd assume most people on here do it because they are obsessed with the ideal cup of espresso, but some people do it because they just like fancy things. (I hope my coffee motivation is the former and not the latter).

Like many people, I researched and was strongly influenced by the "more expensive must mean better" mantra. The discussion on these websites (and photos of all the fancy gear) will lead many in this direction as well.

The point I'm making is that if you are looking for great espresso, a Alexia/PID is all you need. After that, it's all just steam (which seems like a lot to pay).

Endo wrote:Like many people, I researched and was strongly influenced by the "more expensive must mean better" mantra. The discussion on these websites (and photos of all the fancy gear) will lead many in this direction as well.

The point I'm making is that if you are looking for great espresso, a Alexia/PID is all you need. After that, it's all just steam (which seems like a lot to pay).

Actually virtually every which machine should I buy thread I've seen the question of intended usage style is asked prior to recommendations being made. Alexia is oft' recommended for those not planning on steaming milk.

If you don't need the steam power on demand of your current machine and bought more machine than you need, oops on you. Downgrade away. Just don't expect others to follow suite. Some will, some won't, so what!

Then again there are minimalists and then there are the rest of us who frequent this site! Then again again some people while they may be predominantly into straight shots themselves like the ability to steam milk for a dozen or more friends when occasion demands without taking ungodly amounts of time. If that convenience factor costs a Grand or so, so be it. Then again again again some people may not ever have a dozen friends come over.

Endo, I think you are fundamentally misinterpreting what drives this, and you are not alone. The boards are filled with posts celebrating the latest purchase, dissecting the minutia of machine specs, etc etc. So it's easy to get the impression that it's all about bragging rights.

But it isn't. It's about the coffee.

The influential members on this forum and on others, the advanced amateurs and the enthusiastic pros, spend a lot more money each year going to events, getting educated, trying out new things, buying exotic coffees, then they spend on bling and gear. They are influential not because they have a lot of equipment, but because they have a lot of experience, knowledge and skill. Compared to the cost of those, the time and money required to accumulate bling is trivial!

I agree with Jim, that it is about the coffee. However, I get what Endo is saying about bragging rights. I think those two issues often are misaligned. I haven't sunken a small fortune into my equipment (just countless hours of time). However, I produce coffee that is much better my friends with much "nicer", shinier, and more expensive equipment. They are the ones who back me up the most on this point.

People talk about their new toys because they are proud of them and they are investing in their hobby. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. In fact, I think it makes perfect sense. I have the resources and the accommodating wife to spend thousands upon thousands on equipment, but to me it is the journey as much as the destination (and I have too many other expensive hobbies as it is -- wine, travel, pilot, boating, etc). Maybe if my buddy with the $3k DB starts making better espresso than me I will have to step up, but I am happy for now.

And Jon is right about the tone of your comment Endo. Whenever you make broad sweeping assumptions, you are bound to put people off. If I upgrade it will be because I love coffee, not to brag to strangers on a website.

Endo wrote:The point I'm making is that if you are looking for great espresso, a Alexia/PID is all you need. After that, it's all just steam (which seems like a lot to pay).

If it were not for my involvement with this site, I would be happy with just the Elektra Semiautomatica and a level machine for travel/fun (probably the Elektra Microcasa, thought there are other tempting alternatives). I don't mind the hands-on requirements of HX machines as long as they've got group designs that perform. Choosing a "downgraded" grinder would be harder to do, but again, if it were not for testing, I would have a very hard time justifying the cost/space required by the Robur.

Actually, I'd like to thank Endo for starting this thread. I think it is a worthy topic. Just because we all like coffee doesn't mean we can't play devil's advocate and question how far is too far. Some members on here often tell of their early days and the mistakes they made. I think a discussion about possible overkill when buying equipment is just part of the learning process that needs to be discussed. So long as those with large kits aren't criticized, it should be fine. Although, I don't think the advertisers would like the discussion much.

Endo wrote:So, I still don't get it. Why not downgrade? Seems the whole package would cost half the price, take half the space and deliver close to the same thing. Unless you are a Latte maniac or "die-hard" espresso hobbyist, the only other reasons I can see for people investing that much cash and counter space is for kitchen bragging rights, rich newbie misdirection, or barista wanna-be clout.

I read several comments that suggested you might be trolling with this paragraph... and I heartily disagree. It might be misleadingly worded, but I think you hit the nail on the head... a lot of people here are die-hard espresso hobbyists. Still others appreciate espresso machines for their design, history, etc. I know I enjoy quality craftsmanship that has nothing to do with coffee quality, and I also enjoy the espresso machine restoration threads that abound here. Those are a few 'other reasons' why people have expensive gear. I'm sure there are numerous others, some you might find if you buy an Alexia yourself to try. Plumbed in comes to mind. Time constraints.... a lot more than just penis envy, wealthy ignorance, and poser-ism. Or even latté mania and abject coffee fanaticism.

And hey, I'm cutting back. Sold my Super Jolly last week, and got a Robur on the way out as well.

Endo wrote:The point I'm making is that if you are looking for great espresso, a Alexia/PID is all you need. After that, it's all just steam (which seems like a lot to pay).

In order for that point to be taken seriously, you would need to have significant personal experience with more advanced/expensive machines. You are saying, Endo, that the La Marzoccos, Aurelias, Synessos, Cimbalis, etc., etc. add nothing to espresso quality, only better steam (and perhaps greater mechanical reliability). That conclusion runs contrary to the experience of most knowledgeable baristas and certainly contrary to what I have been served in coffee bars using such machines.

Personally, I found the off-center water input of the Zaffiro E-61 to cause chronically uneven distribution, a factor I did not appreciate until I "upgraded" to a Dalla Corte.