TL;DR is that I'm wondering why the results of my office espresso setup (de-pressurized Saeco Aroma) and home setup (Pro 700) are so different.

So in the past months I installed my Profitec Pro 700 paired with a Baratza Vario at home, and moved an old Saeco Aroma to my office. I bought a Breville Smart Grinder Pro to assume AeroPress and Saeco duty at the job. Tired of the foam produced by the pressurized portafilter on the Saeco I decided to remove the pressurization mechanism and see if I could pull shots with an old SBDU.

The results are a bit surprising.

At home, I struggle quite a bit to get shots that are not either too bitter nor to sour (but most of the time, I fight bitterness). I recently realized the Pro 700 was way too hot at the group out of the box and reducing the brew temperature helped a lot. However all my shots are *beautiful*, with nice crema that is durable, etc. Sometimes the shots are just to intense to be enjoyable though. The syrupy ristrettos are generally more palatable than when I try 2-oz doubles; I have more success with small doses (circa 15g-16g), and I suspect I crack the puck (causing immediate channeling) when I dose at 18g. I've been advised to try to grind coarser but dose higher but it simply doesn't work for me --- channeling occurs before I get anything that tastes better. I have better luck with cortados, the milk masking excess intensity and bitterness.

At work, it seems that I can dose a lot more without getting any offending taste. Even with large doses (I don't have a scale at work but it is probably around 18g), ground very fine, the shots lack body. But, they aren't actually offensive (not sour, not too bitter, and certainly not too intense), and perhaps closer to what I get in cafés. The crema is much thinner and disappears much more quickly.

Given that I use fresh beans in the two cases, I wonder what can cause these differences. The pump in the Saeco seems capable enough and while I don't have a pressure dial, extraction rate seems similar to what I had with the pressurized portafilter so I should be at close to 9 bars. Perhaps I'm not and this is part of the difference though?

I have no idea what is the temperature out of the group on the Saeco, but I try to pull shots just after the boiler stops heating, so it shouldn't bee too cold. Shots are not sour, and while I don't have a naked portafilter on the Saeco (I do on the Pro 700), channeling doesn't seem to occur.

So supposing shots are pulled at the same pressure and temperature, should there be a difference between a prosumer E61 machine and a cheap SDBU machine?

The only other difference would be the grinder. In that case, what exactly would cause a too intense / bitter taste with the Vario? As far as I can see, I must grind even finer on the Saeco to pull 25-30s shots than on my Pro 700, and if I go coarser on the Vario I begin channeling, so it's not really an option.

I'm interested in any opinion!

Hi Francois.

I just had a couple intro questions about your home equation. What coffees have you tried, and what brew temperatures have you experimented with so far?

I don't think you have your home machine producing nearly up to potential. It takes awhile to learn a new machine, and when you do, you'll probably be shocked at how much better it is than the Saeco. This thread I posted long ago may interest you because I struggled with a much better machine than the Saeco I originally had, and then one day ...

Breaking Through to Fine Espresso at Home

clivecoffee wrote: What coffees have you tried

Many Of those most well known to HB, almost all espresso blends from Social Coffee (consumed 3-14 days post roast); I had a bit of trouble with 49th Parallel's Old School Espresso (hard to set the grind), but I liked Blue Sky quite a lot. I tried coffee from Bridgehead (Ottawa) too. For me as a Canadian, Social Coffee offers awesome bang for the buck so I now order weekly from them.

and what brew temperatures have you experimented with so far?

I am not sure about the *true* brew temperatures as the Pro 700 controls the brew boiler temperature and displays this temperature minus an adjustable offset. I found this offset to be *much* too high with the default 34F. So while displaying 200F, the brew boiler was at 234F. Water was so hot that I could hear flash boiling almost like an HX machine while brewing.

I don't have a Scace thermometer nor Eric's group thermometer. I measured the water temperature using a meat thermometer plunged into an overflowing cup, but this method is a bit flawed. The thermometer is too slow to react, so by the time it has stabilized, a *lot* of water has gone out of the boiler and have been mixed with fresh water (machine is plumbed so fresh water is cold). Furthermore this does not replicate the conditions during brew, where the chamber is closed and under pressure.

Originally this method produced measurements of 205F but I believe the temperature during brew was quite a bit higher. I had to reduce the display offset by 10F (to 24F) to get a measurement of 200F, but again I think the actual brew temperature is still higher. I'm currently experimenting even lower temperatures and I think I'm making progress. Shots are less intense, and pleasing acidity (not sourness) is appearing. But I think I may have to lower temperature even more, which would mean the default offset in the Pro 700 was *way* too high.

I'm thinking of buying an IR thermometer (gun-type) to see what is the temperature of the first drops. These are quite fast (500 ms) but I doubt the cheap ones are very accurate (they quote typically 2% accuracy even if they display to 0.1 F). I really need a calibrated thermal camera

drgary wrote:I don't think you have your home machine producing nearly up to potential.

I think you're right...

you'll probably be shocked at how much better it is than the Saeco.

I already notice how much easier it is to get awesome *looking* shots. (And steam is not in the same league at all of course. And the looks. And build quality). The thing is, with the same coffee at the same dose, if the pump can produce 9 bars, and if the temperature is the same, the two machines should produce roughly the same drink I guess. I think the Saeco's vibe pump is capable enough, so the only difference I can see is the temperature. Recently I tried temperature surfing the Saeco (but in reverse, rising the temperature using the steam switch before pulling a shot) and sure thing, the shots are much more intense an less acidic -- much closer to the Pro 700 but still weaker and with very diffuse crema.

This thread I posted long ago may interest you because I struggled with a much better machine than the Saeco I originally had, and then one day ...

Breaking Through to Fine Espresso at Home

Thanks, I'll try to read that ASAP

Your Profitec will give you consistency you won't get with your Saeco. But you haven't experienced that yet because you haven't dialed in the Profitec. The thread I linked is a brief read and will give you the perspective I think you're seeking.

drgary wrote:Your Profitec will give you consistency you won't get with your Saeco.

Oh, that I can already see The Saeco uses a deadzone thermostat so depending on what exactly is the temperature inside the deadzone when pulling a shot, you get very different results. I'm finding ways to mitigate this but it's sure not a problem on the Pro 700. Shots are highly repeatable so playing with the variables one at a time is possible and meaningful.

What I struggle with is getting a shot on one that tastes close to a shot on the other So far I was not able to discover how to do this. And I think it would help me since the shots on the Aroma lack intensity whereas the shots on the Pro 700 are too intense.

You are just saying you need to grind finer and dose lower for the same amount of water until you get a similarly bodied shot. It takes time and practice to dial in a machine.

It's not worth trying to compare the two. You can trust that the Profitec is a different class of machine capable of responding to such variations. The Saeco is too inconsistent.

I am with Gary I think you are just not quite there yet with your new machine. When I went from my Gaggia to a e61, it was nice big jump. My shots were more rounded, and balanced than anything I had been able to get out of the Gaggia.

From what you are saying sounds like your machine runs way too hot, remember use your taste to guide you not what the stupid numbers say on the display. Numbers can be manipulated.

drgary wrote:You are just saying you need to grind finer and dose lower

This I already found out by myself: on the Pro 700, lowering the dose and grinding finer, and also going more ristretto than normale, helps in getting a more balanced shot. The problem I am facing is that I'm not able yet to get a normale double that is not too intense and/or bitter (I don't have problem with sourness as far as I can tell).

With most recommended roasters and with medium or light roasts, 18g+ doses often are recommended. I just can't go there at all without getting sink shots.

Intrepid510 wrote: From what you are saying sounds like your machine runs way too hot

Indeed... I will try lowering temperature even more as beans & flow are ok, and dose is already on the low side.

Also, the Saeco's 15 bar brew pressure could definitely mute a lot of flavors. That's a huge variable between the two.

I agree that trying a 16-18g dose and bringing your brew temps down a bit should help. You should be able to find a sweet spot of settings that allows you to enjoy a 20-30 gram extraction and find different flavors to appreciate with each ratio and bean. Looking forward to when we get more Pro 700s in this month to do some of this deep testing and blog about it.