I have been looking into preventative de-scaling for my Brewtus II. There is some confusion as to if you are supposed to de-scale the boilers, or not. Since I have hard water in my area - you can tell from all the deposits around the water fixtures - I don't have a choice. I need to either do preventative de-scaling, or find a way to not have to de-scale the boilers at all. I read in the "Insanely Long Water FAQ", that Crystal Geyser water can be used to prevent scale. However, I also read on a Brewtus users group post, that this might not be the case and that Crystal Geyser doesn't recommend using their water for espresso machines. I found some counter top RO systems (I rent and can't install a system), but I already have a counter top 10 stage water filter system attached to my kitchen faucet, and I have read that drinking RO water is bad for you over time (not enough minerals in the water creates health problems).

What I really want is a counter top water softener to pour my filtered water into, but I don't think that has been invented yet - So, do I:

1. Use the Crystal Geyser? - which might not work and will cost lots of money
2. Replace my filtered water with the counter top RO system for coffee and drink bottled mineral water?
3. Ignore the stupid controversy all together and preventatively de-scale the boilers anyway?

-Randii

Brita pitcher works very well. Softens the water a bit and filters.

I believe its the calcium salts that creates the scales. I personally use distilled water and haven't noticed any scaling in my boiler. As far as reverse osmosis and the lack of minerals go, if you eat food -- meat, fruit, and vegetables -- you'll be fine.

Jarno wrote:...I personally use distilled water and haven't noticed any scaling in my boiler...

Remember also that Abe's excellent Buyer's guide to the Brewtus: http://www.home-barista.com/expobar-brewtus-review.html
reminds us that distilled water won't work, as minerals are necessary for the sensors in the boilers to work properly.

FWIW, I've been using only Ozarka water in my Brewtus for over two years and haven't noticed any problems (knock on wood).

The In-line scale inhibitor looks like it is the best bet, but it looks like it is designed for plumbed-in systems. Are there scale inhibitor filters that can work with a pour-over espresso machine?. I haven't yet seen a counter top RO system that has a scale inhibitor.

The people on the Brewtus Group forum said that they de-scale their machines without any problems - just to use straight food grade citric acid, and flush out the boilers until you don't taste the citric acid anymore. They don't think that WLL's admonishment to not de-scale the boilers holds any water (sorry for the pun!) I'd like to tackle the scale problem from both ends - less scale to begin with means less de-scaling of the boilers.

I haven't yet seen a counter top RO system that has a scale inhibitor.

I meant I haven't seen a counter top *water filter* system that has a scale inhibitor. (Sorry, the other statement makes no sense! Of course!)

Randii, I have no idea what WLL has to say about descaling a Brewtus. But, I will say that no one has any business making an espresso machine that can't be descaled.

Distilled water will only produce mediocre coffee, at best. Lots of consumers will tell you they love their distilled water coffee at home. But, this is only because they do not know what they are missing.

Coffee requires a certain amount of minerals to extract its flavor properly. It's a chemical reaction. Serious coffee shops (and the SCAA Coffee Lab) spend big bucks fine tuning their water's optimum mineral content with companies like Cirqua. Occasional descaling is a small part of the price we pay for great coffee.

I've written so often on this, I'm starting to bore myself!

Randii, I have no idea what WLL has to say about descaling a Brewtus. But, I will say that no one has any business making an espresso machine that can't be descaled.

Marshall,

I didn't hear anything about this de-scaling issue until a person I am in contact with - who just bought a Brewtus - posted that she was told several times by several WLL employees, not to de-scale the boilers, just to backflush the machine. This makes absolutely no sense, especially considering that the company that builds the machine (CREM), included instructions in the Brewtus packaging, indicating that owners should de-scale the machine on a regular basis.

I don't know what WLL's reasons are behind this policy - it could be that they are concerned that people will ruin the boilers by not de-scaling correctly - but I think that's irresponsible. De-scaling a double boiler machine can't be much more difficult, than de-scaling a single boiler machine. I think it is wise to ignore the "do not de-scale" policy. Not de-scaling a machine is vastly more damaging than regular preventative de-scaling.

BTW: I found a "Custom Double Counter Top" water filter that can come with a "Sodium Removal" filter. It is a potassium ion-exchange filter that "will remove virtually all sodium (and hardness) and exchange it for potassium." In other words, it has a water softener. If anyone is interested, or if you have more information about it, you can find the system here:

http://www.purewaterforless.com/product/PE-CTD-C/?froogle

It's much cheaper that an RO system!

-Randii

Additional info on Crystal Geyser: I got a "WaterSafe" drinking water test kit to see how hard the Crystal Geyser water is that I had briefly started using in my espresso machine. The hardness tested within 50ppm, but - the sample tested positive for bacteria contamination! Unbelievable! I hope it is just *this* batch of water! My filtered water and unfiltered tap water tested clean! Bye Bye Crystal Geyser!

-Randii

Like I said here: http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/...so/machines/332308

I'm not saying that water is being shipped from the plant without bacteria in it, but there is a much higher chance that bacteria was introduced to the test sample (or a false positive for other reasons) once you opened it.

Also, tap water in most cities contain chlorine.

I'm re-testing the water that tested positive. I'm hoping that it was a false positive, but it was the only water out of the 3 (I also tested tap and filtered) that tested positive for bacteria. Since I have a post on CG about this issue, I will post my results there, as to not be double posting. I read an article that said that bottled water is allowed to have higher levels of bacteria than tap water. My testing kit is for tap water, so the water may be safe, even with the positive test.

If they just sold TDS meters in our local hardware stores, I wouldn't have found out about any of this!

-Randii

Randii wrote:I'm re-testing the water that tested positive. I'm hoping that it was a false positive, but it was the only water out of the 3 (I also tested tap and filtered) that tested positive for bacteria. Since I have a post on CG about this issue, I will post my results there, as to not be double posting. I read an article that said that bottled water is allowed to have higher levels of bacteria than tap water. My testing kit is for tap water, so the water may be safe, even with the positive test.

If they just sold TDS meters in our local hardware stores, I wouldn't have found out about any of this!

-Randii

If the bacteria level (and type) at Crystal Geyser were dangerous enough to make people sick, you would have heard about it on the news, and the lawsuits would be flying. Water bottling plants are tested pretty regularly by the government. Why don't you call L.A. County Health Dept., if you still have concerns?

Are you testing an unopened container without the test sample contacting anything that is not sterile? Again, I am not saying it's impossible to have bacteria in the water, it is just that the risk of microbial contamination of everything in non-sterile environment is significant. I know I'm being obsessive about this, but home tests for infectious substances, hormones, or metabolites have a limited reliability.

I'm testing the same water to verify if the test was or was not a false positive. If the water tests positive again, I will test an unopened container, but I am not sure how to tell if it is the same batch, because I can't find any markings on the bottle indicating a batch number. I made sure everything was sterilized by boiling in the microwave, before I tested the water this time.

Addition: I just found the info etched into the side of the bottle. I will go buy an unopened container and another kit and test that to double-check the results. It will take 48 hours to complete the test.

I'd opt for a RO with a mineralisator, however, here in Europe dolomite mineralisators are most common, not calcite, but I don't know if it makes huge difference.
Mine has also an far-infrared filter.