Crossland CC1 excessive brew temperature drop during brewing

#1: Post by **eeeehaw** » January 1st, 2013, 7:14 pm

I purchased a new Crossland CC1 machine a couple weeks ago and have been thoroughly exercising it. From day one, however, I've noticed what seems to me to be an unusually excessive brew water temperature drop while pulling almost exact 2oz volume espresso...as displayed in the machine's LCD display.

I have the setpoint for brew water at 202degF (up from the stock 199degF setting), with total pour time at 29 secs, which includes 2 secs of preinfusion followed by 2 secs of wait/pause, and then remaining 25 secs of water pump. During that time, the displayed temperature drops to at most 160 degF, and frequently to below 150degF (this model displays three dashes "---" when the boiler water temp is below 150degF). Again, this is with a total volume of no more than 2 oz of coffee dispensed during the shot pull. It doesn't matter how long the machine has warmed up, it does this with 10 hrs on, or only 15 min on. It doesn't matter how long the tank water has been sitting, ie how long it has taken to warm up from tap temp. I suspect that I have something wrong with my machine, as I have learned from a couple other CC1 owners that they only see a drop in displayed water temp to 180 or 190 degF. The store I bought the machine from in Seattle says "this is normal". I am not getting any useful info from another forum I've posed this question to over the past couple weeks, so am looking for opinions here.

I have confirmed that I have a large water temperature drop outside of the boiler, both in the coffee dispensed out of the porta-filter during the pour or out of the grouphead shower screen with the porta-filter removed. I have a BSEE with career experience in analog/digital circuit design, including PIDs, and am equipped with pro test gear; in this case, I used a Fluke 179 with a thermal probe that has <100ms response time for my measurements. Remember, my concern here is not with absolute brew temp in the puck, it is instead with the amount of boiler water temperature drop during the brew time.

The question to ya'll is: Is a 50 degF boiler temperature drop okay/normal/desirable for a 2 oz volume shot pour? Or does it appear I have a defective machine (eg, failing PID)? Any other Crossland CC1 owners out there who can share their experiences with displayed temp during pours?

#2: Post by **cannonfodder** » January 1st, 2013, 11:11 pm

That guy only has a 0.5 liter boiler which is very small. A temperature drop of a couple degrees would be excessive in my opinion but I have never used a 0.5 liter machine before. It may also benefit from a couple of flushes before you use the machine just to make sure the portafilter and shower screen is up to temperature.

January 2nd, 2013, 1:49 am

Thanks, Dave, for your feedback. I'm also thinking the temp drop I'm seeing is excessive, because my prior 2 machines did not have that great a drop, and both had boilers almost half the size of the CC1, albeit aluminum instead of the CC1's stainless (ie, Al has higher specific heat factor). For examp, the Francis Francis X1 I have has about 300ml Al boiler, analog PID for temp control (only) with in-boiler thermistor sensor, and it drops on average about 15 degF during a pour (actual measured effluent PF stream, not the machine display). Given the CC1's larger boiler & digital PID, I was not expecting a 50 degF drop, instead had expected even better heat recovery than the X1.

The bottom line is that my CC1 machine's espresso is not as good as the "less sophisticated" X1 it replaced, and this brew water temp is the most obvious suspect. The CC1 looks so much better on paper, and I've seen CC1 owners' favorable postings, so I'm leaning toward my particular machine being defective out of the box. The store I bought it from told me that this temp drop is normal, tho, so either I'm being put off by them or else all the other CC1s do the same thing...which is why I posted my question here in hopes other CC1 owners can confirm or deny that.

BTW, I use a 30lb calibrated spring tamper, burrs grind to produce the perfect amount for the double PF (stock pressurized) and exactly 2 oz espresso volume in 25 secs with honey blonde crema.

#4: Post by HB » January 2nd, 2013, 6:36 am

eeeehaw wrote:The store I bought it from told me that this temp drop is normal, tho, so either I'm being put off by them or else all the other CC1s do the same thing...which is why I posted my question here in hopes other CC1 owners can confirm or deny that.

Generally speaking, the boiler's PID readout is meaningless once the pump switches on because the probe may be intentionally mounted near the water inlet on the boiler to improve response time. However, the brewhead temperature should rise rapidly to the target brew temperature and then shouldn't drop much at all. Since you have a thermocouple/thermometer, snake the thermocouple wire up the portafilter spout and stuff the portafilter bowl with aluminum foil so the bead is pressed firmly against the dispersion screen. It's an imperfect measurement technique, but should be accurate within a few degrees to a Scace thermofilter reading.

Most espresso machines I've tested with a similar technique idled between 165°F and 185°F. The temperature should shoot up to the target brew temperature within 5-10 seconds, then fall off a few degrees. If you measure a 50°F drop at the brewhead in two ounces, then the boiler temperature is way off.

#5: Post by **Billc** » January 2nd, 2013, 10:35 am

eeeehaw,
I did see your post on Coffeegeek also here. I see you are located in WA. I am too, in Seattle. If you are close enough, I am happy to stop by and take a look at this for you. Feel free to PM me and we can set up a call or something to get this sorted out.

Bill C

#6: Post by **wsfarrell** » January 2nd, 2013, 10:48 am

In the Seattle Coffee Gear video, the machine drops to 192 after a minute of steaming, rebounds quickly to 200, then drops to 181 after a brew cycle. Your machine doesn't sound normal.

January 2nd, 2013, 8:25 pm

Billc wrote:eeeehaw,
I did see your post on Coffeegeek also here. I see you are located in WA. I am too, in Seattle. If you are close enough, I am happy to stop by and take a look at this for you. Feel free to PM me and we can set up a call or something to get this sorted out.

Bill C

Hi Bill: shawndo informed me you are the Crossland of Crossland Coffee; I'm honored & grateful that you've taken an interest in my problem. Yes, I did try the coffeegeeks crowd for at least a week before coming here, but got the sense that I was being led down a rat-hole by those obsessing over ideal puck water temp instead of my stated large temp drop problem. I had the opportunity last night to compare with 2 neighbors' machines (DeLonghi & Gaggia) by measuring PF effluent (espresso) temp (with the same Fluke test gear/probe) during a pour, and their machines didn't have more than 10 degF between max & min. Given that I've also heard from a couple CC1 owners that they don't see the temp drop I'm seeing, I'm now convinced that my particular machine has a problem that is not likely a design issue, but a QA issue. So, I'm planning on contacting the store tomorrow to confirm they have another machine so that I can swap it out...and hopefully test the replacement machine before I leave. Will let you know how it turns out. Thanks!

January 2nd, 2013, 8:34 pm

wsfarrell wrote:In the Seattle Coffee Gear video, the machine drops to 192 after a minute of steaming, rebounds quickly to 200, then drops to 181 after a brew cycle. Your machine doesn't sound normal.

Interesting. Seattle Coffee Gear is where I bought my machine. While I was there at their store, I had the sales person demo the CC1, and I'd like to think I would have noticed at that time if the demo machine had also displayed a huge temperature drop between start & end of the shot pour...but I can't honestly say I was looking at the LCD display enough of the time. So, it sure looks like I have a defective unit and I'm hoping that a replacement machine will resolve the problem...as otherwise I like the CC1 (steams great micro-foam, has very consistent shot-to-shot volume, relatively compact size, tank in front, adjustable parms). But, at the end of the day, it's the quality of the shot that counts most, so I'm looking forward to better the Francis Francis X1 I've been previously using. Thanks again for pointing out that video.

#9: Post by **Billc** » January 3rd, 2013, 1:10 am

Stephen,
Let me know when you will be there and I will try to meet you. I am very interested to see what this could be. I did a couple of tests today with several machines and got very similar results. Press Start and stop when the shot counter gets to 10. This is about 3.5 ounces of water (at a fast flow rate). The temp drop of the display was about 20-25 degrees. If you want, take a video and send it to me of this 10 seconds. Essentially this is how they will check it at Seattle Coffee Gear. Just a side note for all others reading this post. The temp on the display is the temp in the boiler where the probe is and not the exit point of the boiler. The water exiting the boiler is at the correct temperature. The display is showing the temp of the lower part of the boiler and the water exits at the top.

BillC

#10: Post by **MetaCoffee** » January 5th, 2013, 9:03 am

Hello everyone.

First post!

I have just gotten my CC1. I have been reading this thread. I have tried the 10 seconds experiment listed by BillC to see what the temp would be. At the 10 seconds the temp dropped to 175F from 200F. after waiting to get back to temp, i also tried it at the 5 seconds mark and the drop was to 183.

so is the temp drop to 175F normal for this machine doing this test or is only a temp drop to 150 abnormal?

Here is my concern with this. If everyone were having the same temp drop it would be one thing (normal for this machine) but if some are getting 175 while others are getting 150, 180, or 190 then that to me means there is an issue.