Consistency of HX water dance vs. group thermometer and other questions

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ericT
Posts: 16
Joined: 8 years ago

#1: Post by ericT »

I am on the cusp of an E61 purchase. I'm coming from a Breville Infuser for the past 3 years. I've done all my research and have a solid grasp on the fundamentals of the decision. Unfortunately I live in an area (large town in Midwest other than Chicago) where I cannot go and see any prospective machines in person. So my decision is going to be based entirely on research rather than hands-on experience.

Heat Exchange system appeals to me because I like the elegance of the system vs Dual Boiler. I'm looking at Profitec Pro 500 and ECM Technika IV Profi. I'm leaning towards ECM Profi because I like rotary pump and option for plumbing down the road. Obviously I like the price of Profitec Pro 500 better.

I have a few lingering questions that I just can't fully resolve with my research - I'm hoping to get some informed opinions from the knowledgeable folks on here.

1.) Consistency of Water Dance Method

I don't want to install a group head thermometer. They seem to work perfectly and take all guess work out of process. They also (to my eye) ruin the aesthetic appearance of machine. So i would prefer to rely on Water Dance method. Just how reliable of a method is this though? Is it repeatable and consistent - I can just wait until I get a calm, non-hissing/fluttering flow of water out of the group head and pull my shot? The "Flush-and-go" method would be my method of choice. "Flush-and-Wait" would irritate me over the long run because I don't want to have to start counting and timing anything in my head - that might get tedious and others who occasionally use the machine wouldn't get it. For folks who have Eric's thermometer, Do you find your extraction start time using thermometer corresponds with end of water dance in a Flush-and-Go routine?

2.) Thermosyphon restrictors and true flush time after long idle

"walk-up" Flush time after long idle periods is a primary concern of mine. I'm planning on having my machine on an outlet timer, turning on 30 mins to hour before I usually wake up, turning off in the late afternoon when I stop making drinks. My wife and I will use the hot water dispenser at night for Tea, but we will have time to turn on machine in advance and wait for heat-up.

I have read multiple recent items indicating that recent models of E61 HX machines are utilizing smaller diameter (or is it larger?) Thermosyphon restrictors to achieve lower "long-idle" temps at Group Head at the cost of greater intra-shot rebound time. In theory this reduces flush time (dramatically, according to some). Can anyone comment on the Profitec Pro 500 and ECM Technika IV's use of this system? Do these fall under that category?

I'm also unclear on true walk-up flush time. I read articles and see videos where some folks claim a very brief walk-up cooling flush of 3-6 seconds then pull the shot. I see other examples where folks are doing a 12-24+ second cooling flushes to get to temp after long idle before pulling shot.

From where I stand, not having hands on experience with cooling flushes, a 3-6 second cooling flush doesn't seem like it would be a problem. I worry a 12-24+ second cooling flush every time I want to make a drink could become annoying.

thanks in advance for all responses!

sluflyer06
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#2: Post by sluflyer06 »

You could just say you live in either Kansas City or Saint Louis, since those are the only 2 places with any population in the state of Missouri. And yea, it sucks not being able to see any equipment out here.

It seems like you like the allure of HX but your needs seem to actually point more to a DB...

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Randy G.
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#3: Post by Randy G. »

Among other statements, you say, "I don't want to install a group head thermometer. They seem to work perfectly and take all guess work out of process. They also (to my eye) ruin the aesthetic appearance of machine. So i would prefer to rely on Water Dance method. Just how reliable of a method is this though? Is it repeatable and consistent.."

My first thought is, do you really mean that? You are going to spend a good amount of money for an espresso machine and you don't want something on it that doesn't look pretty even though it is a valuable tool to assist in making better espresso? You may as well go to a Porsche dealer and say, "I really like that car, but can I get it without a speedometer because it make the dashboard ugly. How easy will it be to guess what speed I am going?"

I have personally found the thermometer to be a very useful tool. The E-61 is affected by ambient temperatures and idle time. Considering that one or two degrees can change the flavor of the espresso, the thermometer can be a very useful tool. It is also an excellent diagnostic tool to alert you if something have changed in the way the machine is operating. What if, suddenly, the flavor of the espresso changes? Was it the coffee? The water? The brew temperature? What if the espresso suddenly gets a lot better? Was the brew temperature different? How will you know? The thermometer is just one more data point that helps control a process that already has enough variables connected to it. Why not eliminate one more?

I am not criticizing your aesthetic values. Just your priorities. If "close enough" is good enough, why spend that much money on a machine. Or I could say, if you want a machine that takes care of all that without the hassle of the flush guessing, why not get something like a La Marzocco GS3? OK- that's a bit over the top, but maybe an E-61 isn't the best choice for you?
EspressoMyEspresso.com - 2000-2023 - a good run, its time is done

gophish
Posts: 255
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#4: Post by gophish »

I would argue that Randy's comments might be a bit extreme, in that I too prefer the look without the thermometer, but you can always install it to learn your machine and remove it later. You would loose it as a diagnostic check like Randy refers to, but I personally feel confident that I can both control and repeat brew temperature. As he says, it may be a degree or two different either way, but I'm not going to open that can of worms, so back to your questions...

I found the Technika IV Profi, to work just like it does in Dan's video which also includes the flush routine after long idle, ECM Technika IV Profi Review and I find the routines he demonstrates to be consistent and repeatable. I will say that I find the machine becomes more temp stable after 45+ minutes of warmup though, so if you're going to put it on a timer, you might program it to come on earlier.

Typically speaking, after the machine has been on for an extended period of time, I will walk up and flush until flash boiling stops, and then weigh my dose, grind, prep, etc. I will then flush once more before pulling the shot, using how long I flush after the flash boiling stops to target my desired brew temperature. Again, I find Dan's video demonstrated this very accurately.

Another machine you might consider if you want an HX with a rotary pump and similar looks at a lower price would be the Bezzera Mitica.
Versalab

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canuckcoffeeguy
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#5: Post by canuckcoffeeguy »

Hi Eric,

+1 on the usefulness of Eric's thermometer. It can be very helpful. For HX machines and, yes, also DBs. Why DBs you ask, if they already have a PID? As Randy G. mentioned, the exposed E61 is affected by ambient temperature conditions. My air conditioning vent which isn't that far from my Magica can drop the group's idle temp by a few degrees F.

Also, as Randy G. said, Eric's thermometer can help diagnose problems. Over time, you can monitor your how your machine rebounds, recovers, is affected by ambient conditions etc. So you'll get an idea of your machine's 'normal' behaviour. But if something is amiss, the thermometer could give you a heads-up.

Aside from this, what grinder do you have, or will you be buying? I say this because that could have an impact on your overall budget.

If you're looking at E61 HXs, don't overlook the Bezzera machines. Not because I have one, but because they are just as well made as the Profitecs and ECMs, they use quality materials, and they are typically less expensive. It's also worth nothing that Bezzera is the oldest existing espresso machine manufacturer in the world, it's still family owned, and they have a badass snake logo!

As for the cooling flush. It's harder to explain than to do. But if you don't want to even bother counting your flush and establishing a a routine that works for you, then you might be better of with a PID machine. However, a PID machine still requires the user to find a setting that works for them by taste. And if your offset needs tweaking, or the settings are simply wrong, you'll need to figure that out. That's also where Eric's thermometer can help with a DB.

Good luck!

Nunas
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#6: Post by Nunas »

Assuming you always let your machine warm up fully, there is no reason why you cannot do without a thermometer. But, you have to somehow get to know your machine somehow. Given that, I suggest that a thermometer of some sort is a good learning tool. Once you 'become one' with the machine, you no longer really need it, unless you're a scientific sort of person. Personally, I have EricS's thermometer. I did not install it at first, doing exactly what you describe by listening for the water dance. But, after I installed the thermometer, I discovered that I was brewing my coffee too hot. Having the thermometer on the machine allowed me to experiment with brew temperature variations and discover the temperature that I like. It turns out, on my Magister Stella, I need to run the water well past the point of no more flash steaming to get the 90-degree water (as indicated on the thermometer, not necessarily what is going on in the portafilter), that I found to be the best for my tastes.

You might achieve decent results by different means. for example, you could run a wire thermoprobe up the spout of your portafilter and watch the temperature there whilst experimenting. When you finally discover how to make your God-shot you'll have the data point to repeat it. You should by then also know about how many seconds beyond cessation of flash boiling your particular machine needs to get to that temperature for the first pull.

What you won't know, however, is what to do for successive shots, unless you always follow a given routine and your either measure the temperature or arrive at the routine empirically. Some machines reheat more quickly than others. The thermometer is useful to watch for this. Indeed, I never took the thermometer off, as I had intended to, and I now use it nearly always. So, now it is a habit... or maybe a crutch. It does not matter to me as I no longer find the look of the thermometer to be objectionable. Also, it's handy when I'm showing someone about how to make espresso with an HX.

My 2-cents worth!

nuketopia
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#7: Post by nuketopia »

I have to say, being that I went from a e61 to a very tightly temperature controlled PID machine - I really think the desire to precisely control temperature is not all that important. It would be far more serving to the quality of the drink to spend that effort on the grinder. It really seriously makes 10x the difference that even several degrees of temperature do.

Even a tightly-PID controlled machine needs a flush if it has been idle for a time.

I would suggest that it would be very difficult for taster to identify consistently cups of identical coffee made over a fairly wide range of temperatures.

h3yn0w
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#8: Post by h3yn0w »

Temperature accuracy is overrated. 1 or 2 degrees will not change the taste of espresso IMO. It's a placebo effect or some other variable that likely changing if you think you can taste a real difference. There are much, much bigger variables to concern yourself in espresso prep.

There is however a temperature sweet spot (range) you want to hit, and yes it's possible to do reliably without a thermometer when it's one shot off long idle every time.

ericT (original poster)
Posts: 16
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#9: Post by ericT (original poster) »

Hey folks, thanks for all the responses. The first few responses are pushing me into looking more into DB machines (likely candidates would be Synchronika or Lucca M58). A bit more than I'd like to spend up front, but within the realm of possible. Other than inherently greater temp stability, the built-in shot timer also stands out to me as something I will appreciate vs external timer as well.

On the question of Grinder, I just picked up a Baratza Sette from a reseller on here (it was sent to a reseller at end of July, same model that will be released this October) that I've replaced my Breville Smart Grinder with. The Sette should be up to pairing with the above machines, I'll consider an upgrade down the road.

Regarding Eric's thermometer; if I wind up with an HX machine, I will buy an Eric's thermometer the same day I buy the machine. My goal however, would be to use it only long enough to get the feel for my machine's operation and then remove it.

I think the essence of my personal debate on the HX vs DB machines is the concept of diminishing returns. My goal is consistently very good to excellent espresso on a day-to-day basis. I like the idea of simplicity. I like the idea of doing things by feel and intuition rather than specific numbers. If I'm riding my motorcycle or driving a manual, I'm shifting gears based on feel, not the RPMs on the dial. No doubt I'm leaving a few % performance on the table, but I'm still getting an enjoyable end result. I'm envisioning same thing with the HX. Quite possible my position is flawed as I haven't even used an e61 machine.

How many of your e61 HX users out there are consistently pulling awesome shots without use of a grouphead thermometer? How much performance potential is this leaving on the table?

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canuckcoffeeguy
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#10: Post by canuckcoffeeguy »

ericT wrote: I like the idea of simplicity. I like the idea of doing things by feel and intuition rather than specific numbers. If I'm riding my motorcycle or driving a manual, I'm shifting gears based on feel, not the RPMs on the dial. No doubt I'm leaving a few % performance on the table, but I'm still getting an enjoyable end result. I'm envisioning same thing with the HX. Quite possible my position is flawed as I haven't even used an e61 machine.
Your analogy is not flawed. The manual/automatic transmission comparison has been made before. Namely, by HB's own Dan Kehn.

Also, I like manual transmissions, too. And I happen to have an E61 HX, which I think makes excellent coffee. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I also have Erics thermometer.

I also made the HB quote hall of fame with this one:

"That's why I think prosumer double boiler espresso machines aren't the greatest value. Hey, if you have money burning a hole in your pocket, then go for it. But if the budget is tight, I say up your grinder budget and get the HX over a double boiler."
Quotable Quotes

I still think that if money is no concern, then by all means spend away. But if your budget is limited, HX is the value pick.

There's also the ongoing debate about the merits of flat temperature profiles and humped profiles. Some think the HX hump is actually beneficial. Perhaps it depends on the coffee and desired result. But this is another can of worms.

Here's more info on how HXs work:
Managing the Brew Temperature of HX Espresso Machines

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