Did you ever solve you 50V problem? I not here is some useful info. If the outlet was fed by a wire with 2 live conductors (2 hot, 1 neutral, 1 ground) or when a couple of wires are run close together, there will be some inductance produced in the wires that will cause a phantom voltage. It does not really have the ability to power anything but will show up on a digital voltage meter measuring the RMS votage. If you have an old analog meter with the needle thingy, try measurug with this. The meter will actually dissapate the energy in the circuit and reduce th voltage to zero....... if it is truly a phantom voltage.

Bill C

Billc wrote: If you have an old analog meter with the needle thingy, try measurug with this. The meter will actually dissapate the energy in the circuit and reduce th voltage to zero

Or you could just measure the voltage across a light bulb. It would double as an amperage checker as well! If you have a true 'phantom,' voltage, the light bulb will stay dark, and the voltage will be greatly reduced (E = I R). If you have a true issue, the lamp may want to try to glow a bit, and your voltage will only be reduced a tiny bit.

Astoria Argenta (Laurentis rebadge) single group from mid/late 80s best I can tell, maybe newer. Thanks for this post, my wife can now relax I'm not the only crazy one doing a restoration like this. My classic scooters don't help my case either. Anyhow, few questions.

I descaled everything carefully, complete teardown, pipes and all dipped in citric acid heated up repeatedly. Only thing I did not do was pull the heat exchanger off the boiler, but there was a lot but not as much as seen here scale on outside inside boiler. I did not flush the inside of heat exchange as not sure how scale can get scraped off as only those two inlet/outlet holes and brush tough to get in there. I may need to go back in before I fill her up now.

That isn't my problem, but this may be dumb question. All my solenoids work, all pressure/overfill safety valves tested. I only have O and I on main power switch, no II position which many newer seem to have with II turning on heating element after fill for safety of it not heating without water. My water never seemed to get to temp, so figured bad scale inside as culprit. This may be a silly functional question, but with this external motor does it ever shut off/stop spinning when full with water and not dosing? I assume it should only turn on when water is low or dosing rocker switch is turned on. Mine before cleaning never turned off, but the clacking mechanical internal pressure switch would cut off the fill but motor kept running, so no overfill valve would pop open. I thought if it triggered a pressure release valve it can be a bad or heavily scaled water sensor on the top, which would make sense, but it would just keep spinning and water stop filling.

Not sure how the design of this machine is, so asking, does the motor ever turn off by design? Or does it always keep running no matter what? I just assume it is supposed to turn off when not dosing/full of water. I'll put pics up here as I progress.

Also, who here pulls off the entire HX off the boiler to get internally inside the small supply holes, seems impossible, and what is chance of it scaling as well as inside of boiler and heat element where water/air interface causes more scale? Maybe silly questions, maybe my cleanup job will clear it all up once plumbed, but maybe I'm overthinking and this motor is always on, which will be very annoying. Thanks everyone.

You should also check the output of the electronic board (where the pump is connected). If you are using a standard set of electronics, the pump is usually activated by a triac. When they fail they fail in the ON state.

Bill C

Nick the posts above are correct - only when auto-fill kicks in or when you are making a shot should the motor come on

I would check your water level sensor and see if that's causing autofill to always be kicking on


As for descaling the HX.. I put the whole boiler into a large bucket of citric acid so that the solution was inside of the hx as well...

To get the scale off after the acid soak, just pour water into one of the spigot w. a shower head hose and all of the gunk will come flying out of the other side.

Thanks everyone. Inspired by your projects and impressed with your response. Knew their had to be someone out there as nutty as me taking this on, came across a once-lifetime deal on machine like this after a short-lived restaurant was going out of business that didn't serve much espresso, bought off honest guy and motor spun/no leaks so figured worth a chance and so far so good. The date stamps on the heat element is much newer that the machine itself, so it was serviced somewhere in it's life and newer element put in, so good sign there. It looked ugly, but these things clean up remarkably well and these old Italian machines were built to never die. I remembered Astoria from my restaurant days through college in NYC-area and would have never made the Laurentis connection if not for forums like this. I'll let you know outcome when I get some more time to work on it. Promised my wife I'd get the newest hunk-o-junk together for her birthday, this is easy compared to the seized piles of scooter junk I've brought home before and made stylish rides. Fun to work on something mechanical that doesn't devalue minute you bring it home.

Anyhow, once I get it plumbed, I'll see if it was interconnected lime scale issue, hoping was just autofill sensor but I think if it was that the boiler would keep filling until safety valve popped. I did a lot of soaking fully, and basically had a very large pot filled with citric/water that I kept reheating, letting sit, scrub when temp started dropping, it really makes difference warming solution up. Curious where you all got your citric acid in larger 1lb or higher bags? I had to go a distance to a better-known home beer brew supply house, interesting place but 20 miles away from me, and restaurant supply stores near me had none. I didn't hook hose up to put pressure in the heat exchanger and blow out gunk, considering going back in which is pain as machine is all back together now. Would hate to find scale making it's way through the pipes.

Triac is very interesting possible problem would not have thought about. I have simple multimeter, don't really have something that can measure frequency/waveform, but figure it may either just die completely or be working. This controls the variable speed of the motor. Thought it may just be on/off trigger of some sort. Does anyone know if it's on the motor somewhere or in the Gicar controller (mine is RL30 ECU/Gicar model/part#). I dread it may be a bad Gicar as this is the most expensive part, but all the electronics had no signs of corrosion anywhere near or any signs of shorts. Autofill works, but a failure in the on position makes sense. Why would water pressure not keep building up if stuck in on though? The autofill stops, the pressurestat clunks on/off and doesn't let anything build up. On the motor by itself that little pressure screw/spring keeps water pressure from building beyond the 8-9 bar?

Now I have diagrams thanks to this board I'll trace wiring back, but a failed triac could be possibility. I don't remember hearing any variability to the motor spin. Where can I get a new proper triac? It seems I have the same model as most of you here, design hasn't changed much except for add-on features like dosing, more automation, if you read through the tech manual it even has a natural gas-assist in heating and some kind of credit card add-on for cafeterias I'm guessing. Mine is semi-auto while yours may be auto. The autofill and everything is same, this older one should have fewer failure points I'm guessing.

I didn't see much on the motor in tech manual. Can I look to the orange front panel LED for any clues? Isn't their supposed to be some feature where this turns on after a length of time the motor is spinning as safety feature to prevent flooding? Figure it may be set to a max time it should take to fill boiler, then light up, and cut motor power off, is way I understand the operation. Tech manual says in large 2-3 group machines it sometimes triggers on too early before boiler is full and just to reset power to keep it going to fill boiler first time. My motor never seems to stop spinning, and I remember the LED staying on the whole time. I only have the one round LED light on front panel, other than that just a rocker fill switch and the O/I power button (so guess I don't have the safety fill feature of I/II that at I autofills, then at II turns on heat element to keep it from heating up/popping, so be careful and manual fill when boiler is empty if you have this like me). So, question is does LED staying lit help in diagnosis? I don't know what normal is, so this may signal a bad triac as then the LED lit means some sensor in Gicar is working in telling motor to cut out, but bad triac is keeping motor on as it may default to staying on when failure of Triac. If Triac is on my motor, then no expensive Gicar issue, the tech manual doesn't seem to have motor electric diagrams. Sorry for all the questions, but you can't return electric parts if it is not the issue and I'm not a "parts swapper" mechanic as my father used to call them, but like diagnosing otherwise you are just stumbling onto fixes.

Wish I had few simple motor diagrams, being an Italian design it's bit tougher diagnosing what means what. I don't think it's a miswire, prior owner didn't seem to have played with much outside of an attempted exterior descale never cracking the boiler to clean inside (he bought used for non-coffee heavy restaurant), kinda funny attempt, and most all the wiring I can tell is same as from factory, a tech by owner before him replaced the element and it seems to have been descaled a few times in it's life as I think some others I've seen online were worse. I believe a miswire would just keep it filling until safety valve pops, which it is not doing. Is there some kind of fuse that can blow somewhere as I see a fuse in diagram on ECU/Gicar and cause this behavior? I don't think a bad ground would do it, and most the grounds look OK/uncorroded, I haven't touched wiring except cleaning up the heat element contacts.

I realize I posted a lot, exploring all options and my thoughts, as it very well sounds like it may be Triac which I don't know where I'd get proper replacement. Maybe ideas that get next person working on same restore thinking about possible issues later on. If it triggered any safety valves, the LED didn't stay lit, or was something else more straightforward it would be easier. I hate electrical problems so much more than mechanical. Thanks again.

Also, if anyone reads my post just above, be careful with Triac and capacitors in general. I'm not sure of ratings on one for this motor, or if it bleeds off after shutdown, can be stuck open too/never trust it. Generally speaking, using electrical rated insulated electricians gloves is preferred for unknown ratings, and always use a quality insulated screwdriver to short what may be stored in the capacitor before working on any motor like this. I have some experience with high voltage studio flash equipment, and this is not as dangerous, where a studio flash of some powerful power pack thyristor/capacitors can probably hurt you pretty good (or even kill you). Not meant to scare, but in this internet age just realize everything you work on based on found knowledge is not to be taken lightly, and person on other end may be more experienced assuming a level of knowledge. I'm a espresso machine newbie, have been roasting/playing with a nicer "prosumer" espresso machine, but my mechanical experience comes from 4-5 salvage car restorations, some Vespa tooling around, had an old-timer European father who was a top mechanic and elec. engineering dropout that taught me to respect this stuff (he saw someone fry in a substation once due to not following procedure, not something anyone wants to ever experience), always pay attention. I'll get off my soapbox, and thanks for the ideas, this stuff is addictive/fun.

If it has a Gicar RL30, there is a mechanical relay inside.... so no triac to worry about. Just make sure that the ground from the RL30 is attached well to the frame. For trouble shooting I would take the wire off the probe and ground it to the boiler or frame (to be sure you can connect a wire from position 6 to position 6 on the RL30 to do the same thing). This will tell the RL30 that the boiler is full and the pump should turn off. If it does not, then the RL30 is toast. If it does, then either your probe is corroded or your water does not have enough dissolved solids in it to conduct any current. There are a variety of things that can go wrong with the RL30 usually it is a bad transistor.

If you need wiring help from the RL30, it should be labeled and has 7 connectors:
1 - N = Neutral
2 - F = Load or Hot
4 - SL = Signal from level probe
6 - SR = Signal Reference (Ground to frame)
8 - C - Common - Wire jumper from Load (position 2)
9 - N.O. - Normally Open Relay - Output to either Pump or fill valve
10 - N.O. - Normally open Relay - Output to either Pump or fill valve


Bill C

Thanks Bill C, you sound like a solid tech. I just happened to go back and take a look under the motor green plastic protection cover on the motor itself next to capacitor, super clean/shiny, but the ground seemed a bit loose under there. Where do most of you mount the motor? It is pretty large and I was going to tuck it into the case under the boiler as I've seen newer models placing it there, but the newer motors seem much smaller. What is the proper ground procedure for these machines? This is for a home kitchen, so I'd rather not place motor under a counter. Do you ground motor to machine frame, and leave it at that? Run separate ground for motor? Assume it doesn't need to be earthed and is ground from frame to wall plug.

Thanks for quick reply, I'll dig into the diagram.

The RL30 itself doesn't look very serviceable, if it is a bad transistor, probably won't be able to do anything but replace with OEM which is $300+. Maybe Frys Electronics has replacement if I want to crack out some solder?

Sounds like you've run into RL30 issues before. Is it worth the trouble of trying to fix a transistor? What else tends to go wrong? It seems to be controlling everything else well. What is best parts source you've found? I remember best place/prices I found was in WA state somewhere. I'll probably have to mailorder, so more I can figure out beforehand the better. I know the shop that is better operation around here with 4-5 techs that seem to stay very busy, helped out a bit, but seem more keen on keeping parts for themselves and not overly willing to retail sell parts, we don't have the coffee culture of up north here, at least not as many tinkerers. I'll try out your suggestion. A bad ground could cause this running motor symptom? I figured it wouldn't even spin with bad ground. Thanks again. I'll report back when figured out, so others can benefit later, surprised I even found this thread, internet is an amazing place.