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Alex Duetto PID Temperature Not Steady

Postby benm5678 on Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:03 pm

Hi,

I noticed my Duetto (original model) started to show swings in temp.

PID set now at 197, I see it constantly dropping to 196, then 197, then 198, and back down again to repeat cycle once per ~1 min.

The only change I made recently was change the offset from 18 to 15 (based on Scace).

Is there maybe a PID setting I can change that might improve it? (I verified it's still per manual: P=1.3, I=.06, D=1.5).

Thanks for any tips!
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Postby erics on Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:14 pm

Changing this offset should not have affected anything other than the display temperature value. However, the (almost obvious) next step would be to change the offset back to what it was before the problem appeared and see the results (if any).

If the temperature fluctuations coincided (exactly) with your offset change, that's one thing. If you just happened to notice them at "sorta" within the same time frame as your offset change, it could be that your temperature sensor is a little scaled up and does not look as pristine as the one below:

Image
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Postby benm5678 on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:54 am

Thank you Eric!!

Mine looked like below. I soaked in vinegar and scrubbed off black stuff. It seems to be solid again 8)

What is the white gunk? scale? it gets powder dry quick, and wipes off easy... I see same buildup in mushroom, which comes back if i clean and reinspect in week or so. Also, how does the buildup happen where the wire comes in? the sensor seems sealed to me. I had one fail about a year ago (extreme swings of unrealistic temps) and cleaning didn't help... CC was very kind to ship me replacement -- just hoping it won't break again... maybe time to buy a spare.

Oh sorry- one more, I siphoned the water out of boiler for first time, to try to take a look with flashlight if there's scale... I could barely see inside, but seemed walls are still copper looking. BUT -- my surprise was only 300ml of water.... is that normal for 800ml boiler? I assume it could be since element takes up lots of space.

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Image
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Postby walshman on Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:00 am

This was the reply I got when I mailed my supplier explaining that my pid fluctuated 1 degree either side and that it was 4 month's old.

Hi Dennis
There will be a slight fluctuation in the temperature displayed as this shows what the temperature is in each boiler, as the temperature drops (and the PID will register this) you should hear the element kick in, the red light will come on and the temperature should go back up. It's what the temperature is stabilising at that's important and this is the temperature set by you. These PID's are very sensitive, it's what you've paid a lot a money for and it's so you can see when the temperature is exactly at what you want.
Hope that helps.


Does that sound feasible only I don't want to be fobbed off?
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Postby erics on Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:04 am

Ben -

I believe the "white stuff" is a calcium or magnesium salt buildup. Where the wiring enters the thermowell, the "black stuff" is a sealer used to hold the actual sensing element in place - very common practice. I think it would be a good idea to order up some water test strips from these guys: http://www.mcmaster.com/#water-test-strips/=d78hq8 . I have the T41 and T47 even though the T47 seems to do it all. Titration kits from Hach would be more accurate but are also a PITA depending upon the frequency you do same. It might be interesting to temporarily run your Duetto with bottled water (Volvic is one good choice) and see if that makes a difference (in ALL respects). I did run Anita with Volvic a couple of weeks ago and "could have sworn" I tasted an improved difference. I also have 3 gallons of Poland Spring Water if I can ever get off my lazy butt.

I am NOT a big advocate of espresso machine descaling but the idea of pouring a WELL DISSOLVED descaling solution through the sensor port using a small funnel seems pretty reasonable. Give it 5 minutes of heat, let it soak for an hour or so, and then syphon out. I DO advocate knowing the quality of water going in, treating it as necessary, and developing (in one's own mind) a sign when this is necessary.

The temperature sensor used with these Gicar controllers is a 50,000 ohm negative temperature coefficient (NTC) thermistor. It is designated as such because, at 25 C (77 F), the measured resistance is 50,000 ohms. This is one example of a supplier - http://www.alphatechnicsonline.com/index_2.php .

Image

Boiler sizing tends to be overly generous or "they" may have a different definition of what the "boiler" actually consists of. Boiler tops and bottoms are typically 10 mm and walls are typically 2 mm so you can easily do a quick calculation.

Dennis - that's not an unreasonable response from the dealer. All of these GICAR PID controllers have display "filters" and, for the most part, do not display degree tenths. Only whole degrees are displayed and the tenths are simply dropped off, i.e., NOT a round-up or down. So, as an EXAMPLE, say the exact temperature was 215.9 F. The display (with offset = 0) would show 215 F. Now say the exact temperature was 216.1 F. The display would be 216 F. A true differential of 0.2 would display a differential of 1 degree. And by the same reasoning, a true differential of 1.8 degrees would also show 1 degree.
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Postby walshman on Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:18 am

Thanks Eric S :)
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Postby benm5678 on Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:44 am

Yea, thanks a ton Eric for all the details!

Unfortunately, mine is displaying the same symptom this morning. Overkill to film it, but I uploaded this video after machine heated for few hours, and I let it sit there idle for ~20min.

I don't know my exact water makeup, but it's ~350-400ppm typically out of tap. Softener cartridge is replaced every 6mo, carbon annually. Using ChrisCoffee strips, I see it's still in the proper range when I replace it -- I'll order ones u recommended too.

I will try a descale maybe the way you recommend (i wish i could peak inside better to see if even needed) and/or bottled water test.... thanks for suggestions!!
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Postby Garbanzo on Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:41 pm

I've also been having a problem with my PID stability--fluctuating 3-4 degrees. I called Chris' and was asked to check the sensor for deposits before they would go to the next step. Problem is, I can't get that nut to loosen up and I don't want to do damage to the machine as the boiler wants to wobble and I can't get enough leverage it to keep it from moving. Any help would be appreciated; Am I correct in assuming this takes a 17 mm wrench?
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Postby erics on Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:48 pm

A 17 mm would be very tight (if it makes it) and an 11/16 would be just a tad loose.

Use a plumber's strap wrench on the boiler - you DO NOT want to twist the tubing connections.
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Postby Garbanzo on Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:34 pm

Thanks Eric! Great tip! The 17 fits perfectly with the closed end !
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