220V to 110V.. possible !? - Page 7

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Psyd
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#61: Post by Psyd »

imnewuser wrote: If you run the line, connect the outlet - and all an electrician has to do is check your connection at the outlet and install the breaker - you're looking at less than fifteen minutes -
That's if the electrician agrees that your installation is up to code, of course. I'd have a guy com in to do an estimate, have all the things that you're planning to do lined up for him, and explain that you want him to connect the breaker and check to make sure that you did it right. Let him know that he's getting a check for that, not really to do the work, and he'll be OK with it. Make sure that he knows that this is a project that you want to do, not that you're looking to join the local. This might be the same time that you have the landlord or the super in on the kibbutz as well.
Your depiction of your proposed connection is correct, with one minor exception. There are four wire 220V setups out there, but those are usually for appliances that contain some 220V 'mules' and some 110V 'brains' and lights and such. Your machine, having no such need, will probably not need a neutral, or white wire. Don't go crazy trying to figure out where it went. OTOH, you may want to wire the recept for one of those other appliances so that it's compatible with whatever the next tenant might want to us it for. Washer-dryer? Your machine will only utilize the two hots and a ground.
The other minor quibble is that your breaker will most likely reside in the slot right below the one that you illustrate, so that it gets contact with lugs from both mains. It'll be a double-size breaker, looking (as mentioned) like two breakers fused together. You can wire the recept all the way back to the breakers, and just not clip the breakers in place, which will keep you safe while working on it, and give the electrician a chance to inspect before energizing.
Oh, and wire size? If you're running 3KW at 220V, you're going to be needing to carry 13.6A. 12ga wire and a 30A breaker will be more'n sufficient. You could probably get away with 14ga, but I'd still check out the local codes before I did anything. Note that some codes will require that any electrical work done by anyone that isn't the homeowner be done by a licensed contractor.
Be safe, be legal, and be right.
One important note: I've seen a guy that works with his hands, and builds with wood and steel, and makes a living as a theatrical scenery designer and builder, who welds, and works with electrical power tools all day long, absolutely fail a small hot-water installation. The only injury that was sustained was the one I got when I opened the box to see why there was no hot water coming out. The simplest of electrician's tasks, stripping and wire-nutting a connection, was where he failed. It is the most basic task, and so easy that I'm betting that anyone that ever applies for an electrician's gig is never tested on, because they'd never believe that someone would want to be an electrician and not already know this.
My point is that this smart, (Julliard Grad) handy, even knowledgeable person filed an electrical installation in a manner that could have resulted in injury, death, and damage to property. IF it were all that easy, we'd all be doing it.
Take a grain of salt and the advice of all the folks that have suggested that you don't make your very first learning electrical project without supervision. Do all that you like, but show all that you've done to an electrician and have him pass it for safety, or correct it. Show all your work.
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Psyd
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#62: Post by Psyd »

P.S. This is for those that have looked at the electrical panel, and tried to figure out the 110/220V thing, and wondered how they do it. It's an analogy I wrote for a poor unfortunate that had the misjudgment to ask members of the panel of the NEC, and couldn't really understand their answer (or their trig...)

This is the important picture for you.

If you look at the positive and negative connotations on the tapped legs, you'll notice that the neutral is positive for one circuit, and negative for the other.

Stare at the inside of a single phase breaker panel for a coupla minutes, and it starts to make a bit more sense. You have your two lines coming in on either side; red for 'positive', black for 'negative'. When the red one is 'pushing' the black one is 'pulling' (on the other half of the cycle, of course, it reverses) and the neutral is in the middle. What the neutral does, in effect, is 'pull' for the red 120V split, and 'push' for the black 120V split.
Imagine two guys sawing a great huge log. One guy pushes the saw, while the other guy pulls it, then they reverse, back and forth, ad infinitum. If you had two smaller saws, and two smaller logs, you could set up a guy in the middle to hold the ends of both of the other fellows' saws. All three guys would have to all be going in the same direction for it to be working (in phase) but the guy on the left would be pushing while the woodsman on the right was pulling, and vice-versa. The guy in the middle would be pushing, and/or pulling, depending on which other sawyer you were referencing. The guy on the left side has a red shirt on, the guy in the middle has a white one, and the guy on the right side is wearing black.
The large saw is 240V, for big jobs, and the two smaller saws are 120V each, for smaller work. If you have a big task, the middle guy gets the day off.
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mhoy
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#63: Post by mhoy »

Chris: Very nice explanation.

Mark

SwingT
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#64: Post by SwingT »

Psyd wrote: 12ga wire and a 30A breaker will be more'n sufficient..
While it will be sufficient for his uses, what if the next tenant plugs in a dryer or something with a higher load?

I would normally use 10 gauge for a dryer, so that's what I would wire it up with. The cost will be a little higher than 12 AWG but won't break the bank.
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HB
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#65: Post by HB »

imnewuser wrote:While it's not rocket science - I am extremely uncomfortable with a situation where someone who last week didn't know how to get 230 volts out of a panel is going to run a 230 volt line.
Indeed!
Psyd wrote:Note that some codes will require that any electrical work done by anyone that isn't the homeowner be done by a licensed contractor.
As I mentioned earlier, this is true for our town.

To recap: The owner can apply for permits as their own contractor IF they'll live there for a year after the work is complete. A landlord has no such privilege and neither does any of the tenants. Disregard the local codes and you're (a) personally liable for any loss of property/life that can be traced back to your DIY work, (b) your insurance company will deny any damage claims associated with said work, (c) resale of the property will likely be problematic since non-permitted modifications are legal justification for walking away from a sales contract.

That said, this is all a moot point for a tenant since the rental agreement surely stipulates that the landlord must approve any and all modifications to the unit's electrical service.
Dan Kehn

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Juanjo (original poster)
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#66: Post by Juanjo (original poster) »

imnewuser wrote:While it's not rocket science - I am extremely uncomfortable with a situation where someone who last week didn't know how to get 230 volts out of a panel is going to run a 230 volt line.
don't get it.. just because someone explained to me how the fuse panel works, and seems like I got it right, doesn't mean that I'm going to go ahead and do the job by meself.. don't think I even post anything that can make anyone think that..!

regardless,
THANKS a lot of all the info.

Juanjo
cheers,
Juanjo

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mhoy
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#67: Post by mhoy »

It's funny, I'm an Electrical Engineer, I took the power course(s) (many years ago). I know what to do but I really hate working on line voltage. Something about lethal voltage that just makes me want to get back to digital circuits. :D

Mark

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Psyd
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#68: Post by Psyd »

mhoy wrote: Something about lethal voltage that just makes me want to get back to digital circuits.
I've been bit more times than I care to remember (mostly from some SA guitarist that doesn't understand amplifier grounding, or some DIY bar owner that doesn't understand the electrician's trade) and all it makes me do is spit and curse a blue streak. Really, it's uncontrollable. I usually can calm down after I see the absolute terror in everyone's eyes around me. So far, knock wood, nothing big enough to do any more damage than to burn the ears of those standing near me.
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Juanjo (original poster)
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#69: Post by Juanjo (original poster) »

Psyd wrote:12ga wire and a 30A breaker will be more'n sufficient..



While it will be sufficient for his uses, what if the next tenant plugs in a dryer or something with a higher load?

I would normally use 10 gauge for a dryer, so that's what I would wire it up with. The cost will be a little higher than 12 AWG but won't break the bank.
after a short talk with our property manager looks like the 220v line is getting closer..

this is what I bought so far


I'm putting the outlet in the living room, so doubt the next tenant will try to plug a dryer here..;)

here is my question.. since I don't need to really overkill with the cable, will 12Gauges be enough?

thanks,
cheers,
Juanjo

Grant
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#70: Post by Grant »

Since that is a NEMA 6-20 plug, no device that pulls more than 20A should ever be plugged into it, so yes, 12ga copper should be fine.

Caveat....I am not an electrician, and my advice could be total crap, so use it at your own risk.

G
Grant