malachi wrote:And, in fact, braking hard is required if you actually want to get around the track fast.

I was taking about driving on a street between two stops signs. Accelerating hard and braking hard. Which is the way many beginner and nervous people drive. My father hated that as a passenger, and so do I (now).

JmanEspresso wrote:Ive never understood the "learn using something inferior/outdated, so when you use the superior/improved, you are a step ahead"

Along Michael's comment before. There is nothing "inferior" in my mind about wood burning cooking or roasting, although I have no experience in the latter, I did not implied that and to the contrary I strongly believe that wood burning cooking (pizza is a prime example) IS superior in many aspect.

In my opinion, gas flame cooking is MUCH easier and MUCH more forgiving and allows MUCH better instantaneous control over the process. I would assume that the roasting process would be similar in this regard.

My thought is that wood burning that produces less heat intensity will require to use a process that is more "analog", thus labor and skill intensive, while the gas burning allows the process to be more "digital", thus easier and readily programmable and repeatable.

Gas BBQ have become very popular because of that controllability and forgiveness factor that allows even the less than capable cook to prepare a decent steak after, and while, having a beer and chatting with the guests. But I believe that one can get flavors out of a coal burning BBQ without needing to add pieces of wood to flavor the food. This being said, I use a gas BBQ because it is very convenient!

malachi wrote:This is like the people who say that you should learn to make espresso on a crappy machine (or who claim that learning to drive on a track with drum brakes makes you a better driver). Using inferior tools does not make you a better craftsman - it just makes getting good results (unnecessarily) difficult.

Using inferior tools does not make you a better craftsman, this is true. Being a better craftsman allows you to use more intricate process and use skills over machinery to achieve excellent results. But again the wood burning was not an inferior process in my mind so I didn't imply that or suggested that using inferior tools made one a better craftsman.

AndyS wrote:Of course a wood-fired Probat-style roaster would flavor the beans with wood smoke.

another_jim wrote:...That air may slightly contact the beans at that point, but I don't think it can amount to a lot. The system is designed to isolate the combustion gases from the beans.

It does not require a lot of contact to impart a flavor. In fact too much and it probably would be unpalatable. Smoke aromatics get everywhere! As a matter of fact, I do not like the taste of smoke in most food or drinks and try to avoid it as much as I can. This is probably why I am so convinced that there might be something there (which I would avoid).

Because your post comes just after mine, I will assume that mine may have been the one-too-many-drop.

My apologies Dan (and the rest of the community). I agree that my last post may have been redundant to some. It was an attempt to clarify my previous posts that apparantly had been misunderstood and thus if it did clarified something for someone it was not completly redundant. I do not know yet if it worked or not.

HB wrote:Over the years, I've noticed that some threads marked by differences of opinion degrade into tedious repetition of the various viewpoints with slightly different wording...

Such a thread would be far more informative than this one. It seems to me that this thread has turned into an argument between those with zero experience in the craft of coffee roasting vs. those who are well-versed and have developed an understanding through practical experience.

As far as I'm concerned, this conversation has lost any value as far as advancing the cumulative knowledge about the real differences between electric, gas, and wood fired roasters. Further, since it seems unlikely (impossible?) that the same beans will ever be roasted by the same artisan using the same profile in separate batches of gas-fired and wood-fired then this argument will most likely never have a satisfactory resolution and will remain a speculative pissing match.

JonR10 wrote:It seems to me that this thread has turned into an argument between those with zero experience in the craft of coffee roasting vs. those who are well-versed and have developed an understanding through practical experience.

A bit like saying no one is entitled to comment on the design and construction of an espresso machine if they can't make one themselves....

JonR10 wrote:As far as I'm concerned, this conversation has lost any value ... and will remain a speculative pissing match.

I quite agree

michaelbenis wrote:A bit like saying no one is entitled to comment on the design and construction of an espresso machine if they can't make one themselves....

Quite the contrary Michael, it is more like saying one can't comment (with validity) on the construction of an espresso machine if one had never in their life attempted to pull a shot.

EDIT: But even this is not a valid analogy to my statement....just like roasting coffee has nothing to do with baking pizza or driving automobiles (or even grilling steaks).

Few contributing to this thread seem to have much experience with drinking wood-roasted beans, especially from roasters with decades of experience, and no one who has contributed to this thread seems to have any experience of wood roasting whatsoever.

So as you quite rightly wrote, most of it is mere speculation; not that that's a crime

Cheers

Mike

michaelbenis wrote:Few contributing to this thread seem to have much experience with drinking wood-roasted beans, especially from roasters with decades of experience, and no one who has contributed to this thread seems to have any experience of wood roasting whatsoever.

You can contrive any argument you like, it doesn't change the fact that you are debating the finer points of roasting but have never even attempted to brown a bean yourself

michaelbenis wrote:So as you quite rightly wrote, most of it is mere speculation; not that that's a crime

I never said "most" (about speculation)....
That would imply that at least some tiny aspect was not speculative

I don't know why you get off on this kind of posting, Jon. It's certainly killed the thread and risks turning it into precisely the "pissing match" you wrote about.

I simply wanted to encourage someone to try wood roasted beans for themselves and believe it is human and acceptable for the drinker to discuss what influence the fuel and so on my have on what one tastes (or not) in the cup.

I've had similar conversations with professional roasters with decades more experience than anyone on this forum and have always enjoyed a friendly exchange from which I have learnt, a process they have been happy to contribute to with the generosity and humility that can also go hand in hand with experience and knowledge. None of this needs to be bitter or angry or disrespectful.