barry wrote:approximately 75% of the CO2 in a bean is liberated during grinding. if you have fresh coffee, have you tried letting the grounds sit for a couple of minutes before use to allow that CO2 to dissipate?

Yesterday I roasted a Brazil/Sum/Uganda blend. About an hour afterwards I pulled a couple espresso shots with it.

For the first shot, I let the grounds sit in my Mazzer Mini for two minutes before dosing/distributing/packing. The shot had an eye-watering bitter grapefruit front end. It was hard to take.

I let the grounds sit for six minutes before preparing the second shot. It was a lot better. The grapefruit was still there, but the flavors had rounded out a bit and included marzipan and light roasty notes.

Based on this testing, i'd say that a 11.45 minute rest period would have hit the sweet spot with this coffee.

I'd also say that I believe you when you say "i enjoy coffee from the moment it is roasted until the moment i don't," but I'm skeptical that you enjoy just-roasted coffee as espresso. There is often a point about four or five days post-roast when the blend really comes together as espresso. Even though what you call "staling" may have removed some of the more evanescent flavor elements, what remains can be magic.

Based on this testing, i'd say that a 11.45 minute rest period would have hit the sweet spot with this coffee.

Was that a 14 minute rest period of the ground beans? That would be quite a big difference compared to the whole beans.

AndyS wrote:I'd also say that I believe you when you say "i enjoy coffee from the moment it is roasted until the moment i don't," but I'm skeptical that you enjoy just-roasted coffee as espresso. There is often a point about four or five days post-roast when the blend really comes together as espresso. Even though what you call "staling" may have removed some of the more evanescent flavor elements, what remains can be magic.

I think it depends on the coffee. I tend to use my roasts for espresso on day I roast, latest the day after. If I get the lemon peel or grapefruit thing, I don't use that coffee in my blend (oddly, this note does **not** correlate well with the acidity of the coffee). However, this means I'm no expert on resting, since I end up weeding out the coffees that may benefit from it.

I got a sample of the very celebrated 2nd place, Jose Junqeira, Brazil COE coffee today (thanks Miguel), and couldn't resist trying the North Italian roast I did on it straight out of the roaster. The shot was pure liquid Toblerone -- milk chocolate, almonds and honey. If that appeals to you, try hunting down a pound (Ecco and the Roasterie are the listed buyers); this one is an almost platonic Brazil. I really doubt that it will develop into anything better over the next week; but there's no way it's going to get worse either.

I don't know if I'd give it a 90+ like the COE folks -- it's a perfect Brazil, but still a brazil -- and I'd be very tempted to add around 20% of a good Guat Frejanes to zing it up a bit; but I suspect that as an SO, it's consistent and crowd pleasing enough that it'll be used by a few competitors at this years WBC (Kaffa in Norway was a big buyer).

roblumba wrote: Was that a 14 minute rest period of the ground beans? That would be quite a big difference compared to the whole beans.

Trying to be humorous (lame, I know), I was speculating that a rest period (of the ground beans before packing) of more the 6 minutes might have made the shots even better. 11.45 minutes was a just wild guess.

The shot was pure liquid Toblerone -- milk chocolate, almonds and honey. If that appeals to you, try hunting down a pound (Ecco and the Roasterie are the listed buyers);

I've been buying Ecco Reserve Northern Italian Roast exclusively the last month for exactly that reason. It ages very well and tastes exactly as you described it.

One thing I thought made a big difference for aging is the oil. Is it kept in the bean or can you see it on the outside of the bean? Since I felt the oils are volatile, they are better kept inside the bean, otherwise, the oils are more subject to become rancid. I thought I read about this somewhere, but I can't remember where.

The Northern Italian Roast from Ecco Caffe is done in such a way that there is no oily appearance to the beans. I think Schomer does the same with his beans. They all look dry. I've assumed that this means that all the oils are safely stored inside the bean, but perhaps this may also mean that there are not as many oils in the bean to begin with.

What do you all think?

roblumba wrote:One thing I thought made a big difference for aging is the oil. Is it kept in the bean or can you see it on the outside of the bean? Since I felt the oils are volatile, they are better kept inside the bean, otherwise, the oils are more subject to become rancid. I thought I read about this somewhere, but I can't remember where.

Oil on the bean depends on roast level. The lightest roasts for espresso (North Italian or Light Full City) will not show oil in the first few weeks after the roast. Darker roasts will either be oily out of the roaster (French roasts) or oil up in about 3 to 5 days (Vienna roasts).

The best degree of roast is a matter of taste and bean type. The Junqueira, for instance, cupped a little gunpowdery, so would not do for a darker roast. Many indos, on the other hand, are at their best at Vienna roasts with oily beans.

The bit about the oils staling more on the outside than the inside of the bean strikes me like a clever bit of defamation Schomer came up with when he was still battling the idea that espresso had to be roasted to Starbucks levels. From a PR point of view, it's better to insist one is right, and the rest of the world is wrong, than to say there's room for all sorts of coffees.

PR and truth don't mix. The oil bit seems like obvious PR to me for a simple reason -- there's no such thing as a dark roast without oil on it; hence, to say visible oil is bad is to say no more than dark roasts are bad. Brewed coffee drinkers tend to disparage dark roasts for reducing the aroma and acidity of the coffee; this is undoubtedly true, but since "acidity" is a scare word for most coffee drinkers, the stale oil bit has legs as a put down.

another_jim wrote:Oil on the bean depends on roast level. The lightest roasts for espresso (North Italian or Light Full City) will not show oil in the first few weeks after the roast. Darker roasts will either be oily out of the roaster (French roasts) or oil up in about 3 to 5 days (Vienna roasts).

In my undocumented and unscientific experience I have found amount of surface oil to relate also to the roast profile. Fast roast = more oil even cutting roast at same "crack point" as more finessed ramp for me. Anyone else experience this? First saw this immediately when I switched from unmodified to pidded popper, and it was very noticeable to me. Stark even. No idea why this might happen, but it certainly did for me.

The 2nd crack occurs at a lower temp on longer roasts. For instance, first pops of the second is a City roast on a drum, a full city roast on most air roasters. This, along with the vagaries of thermometry when one changes roaster or profile (change the environmental temperature, and you change all the bean temp readings), makes for some really complicated tradeoffs for length of roast, surface color, and final temperature.

But after this obligatory "complications waffling," I think you're right. A fast roast requires high environmental temperatures. This will create darker and oilier surfaces when the final (ground) color of the bean remains constant.

That was my other understanding. Oily surface also means faster roast. And as the old saying goes, the best things come to those who wait. I felt that there was a double gain with the dryer surface. The oil was protected inside the bean and the roast was done slower and with more care. But then again, perhaps it's just PR.

While the coffee may be losing some aromatics while it rests, you seem to ignore the fact that the oils and sugars continue to combine, develop, and change after roasting for a period of time. The flavor development of the beans doesn't stop at the moment the beans have cooled to room temperature.

By using the coffee immediately, you've not given the chemistry in the bean that was started by roasting time to finish. Flavor development is really a better term than "staling" - which is neither accurate nor descriptive of what is happening within the bean after roasting. Staling means to be made unpalatable from age.

If coffee develops better flavor because you've allowed the chemistry that was started by roasting to fully finish - that, by definition can't be staling as the flavor has been improved and not degraded.