Hi All,

I have been trying to pull a good shot of Terroir's Daterra, North Italian Style Espresso for the past 5 days with no luck at all I received the coffee one day after roast, immediately taped over the valve and put the bag in the freezer, where it stayed about one week. This past Friday evening I pulled the bag from the freezer, removed the tape and allowed the beans to come up to room temp in preparation for use the next morning. After dialing in the grinder to produce 1.5-1.75 oz shots in 24-25 sec I pulled my first shot to drink (temp set at 91 C and group heated by running aprx 8 oz water before pulling the shot, aprx 18 gm coffee) and it was quite sour tasting. It also smelled kind of sour. Since then I've tried boosting the temp, one degree C all the way up to 96 C and varying the doses 14-19 gms. Every shot has been sour and I haven't been able to enjoy a straight shot of this coffee. It's OK in cappas but just OK and I can still smell the sour component. Note, I don't weigh all doses but I've weighed enough of them to feel I have a pretty good idea how much coffee is in the basket.

Out of maybe 10 varieties of espresso roasts, including Terrior's Calibra, which was quite good, this is the first one that has been a real disappointment. Any ideas on what's up here?

Thanks,
Dave

Hey Dave,

When you say you've weighed doses, you're speaking of this specific roast, right?

What's the roast date?

I have never tried that coffee. Maybe it still needs to rest some as it was in the freezer for the first week?

SL28ave wrote:Hey Dave,

When you say you've weighed doses, you're speaking of this specific roast, right?

What's the roast date?

Yes, I mean this roast. I also periodically weigh doses from all the roasts I use, just so I have a few data points and to keep myself in check.

I'm afraid I don't know the exact roast date, as I tossed the bag right after opening it, but the timetable I described is pretty accurate.

Sour espresso can mean the brew temp is too low. Have you tried brewing at a higher temp? Also, are you using a naked portafilter and watching for channeling?

There's a ton of posts on this blend, just search them out. Terroir itself recommends a low dose of 14 grams and a low brew temperature of 195F.

another_jim wrote:There's a ton of posts on this blend, just search them out. Terroir itself recommends a low dose of 14 grams and a low brew temperature of 195F.

Yes Jim, I'm aware of the Terrior's recommendation and I had already read and reread many of the posts re: this coffee. BTW, 91 C is aprx. 195 F and I have tried every temp my machine offers except 97 C (207 F?). I was back at 91 C this AM. I have tried a weighed 14 gm dose. Still sour. I'm using a naked PF. I may be getting a little channeling sometimes, but not always. I tried the higher temps because that supposedly cures sour shots. It's hard to believe a coffee could be so sensitive to dose size that a gram or two above 14 gm would have such a pronounced negative effect, the same sourness, at every temp and dose combination I've tried. But, I'm still relatively new to home espresso making so what do I know

Although I'm meticulous about keeping the group clean between shots and brew sessions I have not done a detergent back flush in a few weeks. I plan to do so this weekend. However, the coffee I was using the day before, Gimme's Platinum Blonde, tasted fine. Could a "dirty" machine be the cause here?

Thanks to all,
Dave

This espresso is usually quite bright - and some people experience this as sour.
It's possible that you simply don't like it.

For what it's worth - I find the Terroir brewing instructions result in shots I simply don't like at all. For this coffee, I vastly prefer 200F and 17.5grams for a 1.5oz double.


Oh - and for what it's worth.... you haven't cleaned in a couple weeks?!? People.... I accept that you're not going to clean daily (like I think you really should) but you really need to clean your equipment frequently. Seriously.

Good point Chris. Maybe this coffee just doesn't work for my taste. For sure it's the lightest roast I've tried. I've also read that light roasts are generally harder to work with. Also, FWIW, I debated whether to post this or not. I think I did my homework before hand. But having heard so many great reports on this coffee I was really psyched to try it... and to like it. I thought, what the heck, maybe I've missed something and someone more experienced would see it and fill me in. If it's just not my "cup of coffee" then no problem, I'll just use something else.

As to my cleaning schedule. Know that I wipe off the dispersion screen after each shot, back flush daily, don't pull more than 2-3 shots on average daily, remove and clean the dispersion screen and brass block weekly, and clean the water reservoir weekly or at least biweekly. I've also read many posts about cleaning with detergent. There doesn't seem to be any universally accepted schedule for this service. In fact many believe that cleaning too often can damage a machine. I think it might harm some rubber seal(s). Anyway, I'm following Chris Coffee's recommendation, detergent clean every 4-6 weeks. As with all things espresso I understand universal consensus "ain't gonna happen"

Thanks again.

It is a bright blend, and mostly not to my taste. However, experiencing a shot as sour basically means the acidity is over balancing the sweetness. The remedy is to increase the extraction percentage, since the more slowly extracting fractions tend to be more sweet and less acidic. Generally, lower doses, finer grinds, slower shots, and higher volumes whose color at the finish is quite watery, lead to higher extractions.

So I disagree with Chris and would stay with a low dose 12 to 14 gram dose on this blend and I would also stay at around 2 ounces; however, I agree with him and would also grind the finer, run the shot longer, 32 seconds plus, and make sure the flow is a lot clearer and lighter at the end than usual. Do not worry too much about body, these very light roasts should be treated as somewhat more coffee-like, and made into a much more normale or lungo, Northern Italian style shot, rather than the gelatinous ristrettos of Southern Italy or the Pacific NW.

DaveM wrote:As to my cleaning schedule. Know that I wipe off the dispersion screen after each shot, back flush daily, don't pull more than 2-3 shots on average daily, remove and clean the dispersion screen and brass block weekly, and clean the water reservoir weekly or at least biweekly. I've also read many posts about cleaning with detergent. There doesn't seem to be any universally accepted schedule for this service. In fact many believe that cleaning too often can damage a machine. I think it might harm some rubber seal(s). Anyway, I'm following Chris Coffee's recommendation, detergent clean every 4-6 weeks. As with all things espresso I understand universal consensus "ain't gonna happen"

The whole "cleaning too often will damage your machine" myth should have been finally debunked by now (please). Suffice it to say that there are high-end coffee bars that clean multiple times per day (on a per group basis) and their machines are fine. I clean with detergent daily - my machines have always held up just fine.

I'm disappointed to hear that is what Chris' Coffee recommends.

malachi wrote:The whole "cleaning too often will damage your machine" myth should have been finally debunked by now (please). Suffice it to say that there are high-end coffee bars that clean multiple times per day (on a per group basis) and their machines are fine. I clean with detergent daily - my machines have always held up just fine.

I'm disappointed to hear that is what Chris' Coffee recommends.

There is nothing to be disappointed about as a detergent backflush once every 3-4 weeks is all the Vivaldi requires. In fact I've gone 6 weeks and still gotten very little brown smooge during the cleaning. The dual screen set up on the grouphead traps grinds that would normally end up in the 3 way valve. Dropping the screens once a week & cleaning this out is part of the normal Vivaldi maintenance as are plain water backflushes. La Spaziale includes a spare set of screens with each machine so you can always have a clean set on hand.

I assume Chris Tacy's concern is the rancid oils trapped by the brass components, not the smooth operation of the three-way valve. Chris Nachtrieb's concerns are reliable equipment and keeping service costs down.

Exhibit A: From what service technicians describe in sessions at the SCAA, some poorly informed owners dump a couple tablespoons of detergent into the blind basket and then wonder why the solenoid fails to close. Or they're too cheap to pay for espresso detergent and substitute dishwasher machine detergent.

Exhibit B: Many have read Rancilio's insistence that the Silvia not be backflushed or the warranty will be voided. I've never heard any official explanation for this restriction and I cannot think of a logical reason given that pulling a ristretto puts more strain on the internals than a five second backflush. But knowing that this is a popular espresso machine among newbies, one can surmise that many came back to the reseller for "warranty issues" related to a clogged brew path. One can further imagine them arguing with this new owner that said owner's (uninformed) actions caused the problem. Solution? Manufacturer adds a disclaimer saying "backflush and the warranty's void" and voila, no warranty claims and no more arguing with Silvia newbies.

That said, I flush lots of water and use detergent once a week.

another_jim wrote:It is a bright blend, and mostly not to my taste. However, experiencing a shot as sour basically means the acidity is over balancing the sweetness. The remedy is to increase the extraction percentage, since the more slowly extracting fractions tend to be more sweet and less acidic. Generally, lower doses, finer grinds, slower shots, and higher volumes whose color at the finish is quite watery, lead to higher extractions.

So I disagree with Chris and would stay with a low dose 12 to 14 gram dose on this blend and I would also stay at around 2 ounces; however, I agree with him and would also grind the finer, run the shot longer, 32 seconds plus, and make sure the flow is a lot clearer and lighter at the end than usual. Do not worry too much about body, these very light roasts should be treated as somewhat more coffee-like, and made into a much more normale or lungo, Northern Italian style shot, rather than the gelatinous ristrettos of Southern Italy or the Pacific NW.

Thank you very much Jim for this detailed explanation and recommendation. I have just enough of this coffee left to pull 1-2 more shots, so I'll try this tomorrow morning. BTW, I dosed on the low side again this morning but stopped the shot on two doubles at 24 sec. Still too sour/bright for my tastes.

My next roast to be tried is Terrior's Sumatra Mandheling, South Italian Espresso Roast. This came in the same shipment as the Daterra, received the same handling but has spent one week more in the freezer. I'm expecting this bean to be quite different and hopefully more to my liking!

Dave

How many of the "once a week" detergent cleaners here have any long term experience with a Vivaldi? When you drop the screens(weekly) you also clean the diffuser block as it will drop off with them. You scrub the exposed area of the grouphead & reassemble. Since we aren't talking E61 grouphead that doesn't leave much to get gummed up besides the valve. Owners have been following the detergent cleaning frequency specified by CC since 2004 & I've seen zero posts on the S1 forum related to gummed up machines or rancid oil issues.

From my own experience I get very little brown smooge when I detergent flush after 4 weeks & the one time I tried cleaning after only 2 weeks I got zip.

I am a regular George Howell customer. I don't have any luck with anyone's Daterra at any temperature. The one I like best is Terroir's Calabria, but still not one of my favorites. Just not my thing.

Happy Holidays,
DP

DaveM wrote:Thank you very much Jim for this detailed explanation and recommendation. I have just enough of this coffee left to pull 1-2 more shots, so I'll try this tomorrow morning. BTW, I dosed on the low side again this morning but stopped the shot on two doubles at 24 sec. Still too sour/bright for my tastes.

My next roast to be tried is Terrior's Sumatra Mandheling, South Italian Espresso Roast. This came in the same shipment as the Daterra, received the same handling but has spent one week more in the freezer. I'm expecting this bean to be quite different and hopefully more to my liking!

Dave

Dave,

What you describe doesn't sound like it is your fault, sometimes roast is just not as good as it should be.
I have been using Dettera North after freezing for long time now and Espresso comes just fine
I suggest calling the guys in Terroir and asking for replacement

/gabi

DaveM wrote:Thank you very much Jim for this detailed explanation and recommendation. I have just enough of this coffee left to pull 1-2 more shots, so I'll try this tomorrow morning. BTW, I dosed on the low side again this morning but stopped the shot on two doubles at 24 sec. Still too sour/bright for my tastes.

My next roast to be tried is Terrior's Sumatra Mandheling, South Italian Espresso Roast. This came in the same shipment as the Daterra, received the same handling but has spent one week more in the freezer. I'm expecting this bean to be quite different and hopefully more to my liking!

Dave

Quick follow-up here. Dosing low (aprx 14 gm) and pulling longer (32 sec) for 2 oz definitely gave me the best results, at least for my tastes. However, the best use of this coffee, again for me, was when I pulled as just described and used in an Americano. Pretty smooth with little sourness detected. I do not think there was any fault with this coffee.

FWIW, I think the Sumatra Mandheling, South Italian Espresso Roast works best when treated the same way. Terrior's Calabria is way more to my liking

Next up, the Espresso sampler from Counter Culture. I think I'm ready for blends again...

Thanks again to everyone who replied here. Much appreciated

Dave

In my book, Terroir's Northern is right at the limit of both espresso technique and taste. I can get shots that are OK, tasting as it should; but I can't pretend to be in love with it. There are rewards to the consumer for Terroir pushing envelope, since they bring out other SOs that are unique and very tasty. Also, the Northern does have its own a dedicated "sourpuss" following.