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Terroir's Daterra, North Italian Style Espresso- Sour! - Page 2

Postby malachi on Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:46 pm

DaveM wrote:As to my cleaning schedule. Know that I wipe off the dispersion screen after each shot, back flush daily, don't pull more than 2-3 shots on average daily, remove and clean the dispersion screen and brass block weekly, and clean the water reservoir weekly or at least biweekly. I've also read many posts about cleaning with detergent. There doesn't seem to be any universally accepted schedule for this service. In fact many believe that cleaning too often can damage a machine. I think it might harm some rubber seal(s). Anyway, I'm following Chris Coffee's recommendation, detergent clean every 4-6 weeks. As with all things espresso I understand universal consensus "ain't gonna happen" :)


The whole "cleaning too often will damage your machine" myth should have been finally debunked by now (please). Suffice it to say that there are high-end coffee bars that clean multiple times per day (on a per group basis) and their machines are fine. I clean with detergent daily - my machines have always held up just fine.

I'm disappointed to hear that is what Chris' Coffee recommends.
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Postby JohnB. on Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:09 pm

malachi wrote:The whole "cleaning too often will damage your machine" myth should have been finally debunked by now (please). Suffice it to say that there are high-end coffee bars that clean multiple times per day (on a per group basis) and their machines are fine. I clean with detergent daily - my machines have always held up just fine.

I'm disappointed to hear that is what Chris' Coffee recommends.


There is nothing to be disappointed about as a detergent backflush once every 3-4 weeks is all the Vivaldi requires. In fact I've gone 6 weeks and still gotten very little brown smooge during the cleaning. The dual screen set up on the grouphead traps grinds that would normally end up in the 3 way valve. Dropping the screens once a week & cleaning this out is part of the normal Vivaldi maintenance as are plain water backflushes. La Spaziale includes a spare set of screens with each machine so you can always have a clean set on hand.
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Postby HB on Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:10 pm

I assume Chris Tacy's concern is the rancid oils trapped by the brass components, not the smooth operation of the three-way valve. Chris Nachtrieb's concerns are reliable equipment and keeping service costs down.

    Exhibit A: From what service technicians describe in sessions at the SCAA, some poorly informed owners dump a couple tablespoons of detergent into the blind basket and then wonder why the solenoid fails to close. Or they're too cheap to pay for espresso detergent and substitute dishwasher machine detergent. :shock:

    Exhibit B: Many have read Rancilio's insistence that the Silvia not be backflushed or the warranty will be voided. I've never heard any official explanation for this restriction and I cannot think of a logical reason given that pulling a ristretto puts more strain on the internals than a five second backflush. But knowing that this is a popular espresso machine among newbies, one can surmise that many came back to the reseller for "warranty issues" related to a clogged brew path. One can further imagine them arguing with this new owner that said owner's (uninformed) actions caused the problem. Solution? Manufacturer adds a disclaimer saying "backflush and the warranty's void" and voila, no warranty claims and no more arguing with Silvia newbies.

That said, I flush lots of water and use detergent once a week.
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Postby cannonfodder on Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:31 am

I clean at least one a week, every Saturday morning, or whenever I change blends. Two weeks or more is a bit extreme.

Another idea, you taped the valve and froze the beans. Freezing slows the ageing but does not stop it. Even though the beans are technically two weeks old, the bean development age may be more inline with 6 days due to the freezing. You may find that the coffee develops more to your liking in another few days, or you may simply hat the profile the coffee produces.
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Postby DaveM on Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:34 am

another_jim wrote:It is a bright blend, and mostly not to my taste. However, experiencing a shot as sour basically means the acidity is over balancing the sweetness. The remedy is to increase the extraction percentage, since the more slowly extracting fractions tend to be more sweet and less acidic. Generally, lower doses, finer grinds, slower shots, and higher volumes whose color at the finish is quite watery, lead to higher extractions.

So I disagree with Chris and would stay with a low dose 12 to 14 gram dose on this blend and I would also stay at around 2 ounces; however, I agree with him and would also grind the finer, run the shot longer, 32 seconds plus, and make sure the flow is a lot clearer and lighter at the end than usual. Do not worry too much about body, these very light roasts should be treated as somewhat more coffee-like, and made into a much more normale or lungo, Northern Italian style shot, rather than the gelatinous ristrettos of Southern Italy or the Pacific NW.


Thank you very much Jim for this detailed explanation and recommendation. I have just enough of this coffee left to pull 1-2 more shots, so I'll try this tomorrow morning. BTW, I dosed on the low side again this morning but stopped the shot on two doubles at 24 sec. Still too sour/bright for my tastes.

My next roast to be tried is Terrior's Sumatra Mandheling, South Italian Espresso Roast. This came in the same shipment as the Daterra, received the same handling but has spent one week more in the freezer. I'm expecting this bean to be quite different and hopefully more to my liking!

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Postby JohnB. on Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:02 am

How many of the "once a week" detergent cleaners here have any long term experience with a Vivaldi? When you drop the screens(weekly) you also clean the diffuser block as it will drop off with them. You scrub the exposed area of the grouphead & reassemble. Since we aren't talking E61 grouphead that doesn't leave much to get gummed up besides the valve. Owners have been following the detergent cleaning frequency specified by CC since 2004 & I've seen zero posts on the S1 forum related to gummed up machines or rancid oil issues.

From my own experience I get very little brown smooge when I detergent flush after 4 weeks & the one time I tried cleaning after only 2 weeks I got zip.
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Postby DP on Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:56 am

I am a regular George Howell customer. I don't have any luck with anyone's Daterra at any temperature. The one I like best is Terroir's Calabria, but still not one of my favorites. Just not my thing.

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Postby gabriel on Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:36 am

DaveM wrote:Thank you very much Jim for this detailed explanation and recommendation. I have just enough of this coffee left to pull 1-2 more shots, so I'll try this tomorrow morning. BTW, I dosed on the low side again this morning but stopped the shot on two doubles at 24 sec. Still too sour/bright for my tastes.

My next roast to be tried is Terrior's Sumatra Mandheling, South Italian Espresso Roast. This came in the same shipment as the Daterra, received the same handling but has spent one week more in the freezer. I'm expecting this bean to be quite different and hopefully more to my liking!

Dave

Dave,

What you describe doesn't sound like it is your fault, sometimes roast is just not as good as it should be.
I have been using Dettera North after freezing for long time now and Espresso comes just fine
I suggest calling the guys in Terroir and asking for replacement

/gabi
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Postby DaveM on Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:37 am

DaveM wrote:Thank you very much Jim for this detailed explanation and recommendation. I have just enough of this coffee left to pull 1-2 more shots, so I'll try this tomorrow morning. BTW, I dosed on the low side again this morning but stopped the shot on two doubles at 24 sec. Still too sour/bright for my tastes.

My next roast to be tried is Terrior's Sumatra Mandheling, South Italian Espresso Roast. This came in the same shipment as the Daterra, received the same handling but has spent one week more in the freezer. I'm expecting this bean to be quite different and hopefully more to my liking!

Dave


Quick follow-up here. Dosing low (aprx 14 gm) and pulling longer (32 sec) for 2 oz definitely gave me the best results, at least for my tastes. However, the best use of this coffee, again for me, was when I pulled as just described and used in an Americano. Pretty smooth with little sourness detected. I do not think there was any fault with this coffee.

FWIW, I think the Sumatra Mandheling, South Italian Espresso Roast works best when treated the same way. Terrior's Calabria is way more to my liking :)

Next up, the Espresso sampler from Counter Culture. I think I'm ready for blends again...

Thanks again to everyone who replied here. Much appreciated :!:

Dave
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Postby another_jim on Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:34 pm

In my book, Terroir's Northern is right at the limit of both espresso technique and taste. I can get shots that are OK, tasting as it should; but I can't pretend to be in love with it. There are rewards to the consumer for Terroir pushing envelope, since they bring out other SOs that are unique and very tasty. Also, the Northern does have its own a dedicated "sourpuss" following.
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