mariobarba wrote:In the end, Intrepid510 only has ~20$ to lose by trying a bag of Lavazza, but at the same time would gain the knowledge of if he likes Lavazza or not.

It's funny, the things we argue about here. I agree that it's only $20 so why not try Lavazza (or whatever other bean). On the other hand, I doubt you would get a good sampling of what Lavazza tastes like from the beans you could buy here. Illy, on the other hand, may give up the goods at first can opening.

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, Mario?

1) If you look at most of my posts re: "Babbie's Rule of Fifteens," they come with an asterisk. For example, look here. In espresso, as in life, there are very few hard-and-fast rules. Now, I think that's "a given," but I'll make sure I include it on all my posts from now on, Mario.

2) Personal experience always counts for a lot. Doesn't mean I have to get hit by a car to know it's not a good idea. (Hmmm, bad example; I actually was hit by a car once.) Doesn't mean I have to jump off a tall building to know it's not a good idea, however. Ergo, if someone says, "I think I'll jump off that 25-story building," I confess I'd probably caution again it. Then again, a) I've had Lavazza, and b) I pointed out a less expensive way for Nick to try it for himself. Now -- and this is just a guess -- I'm guessing Nick is over 18 and certainly free to do as he wishes; you and I can neither prevent him from, nor force him to, do any given thing. But he did come here seeking advice, and I offered mine. As always, "YMMV" is the rule of the day, and Nick remains free to do as he chooses.

3) I can't speak for your access to fresh coffee beans in Montréal, which is WHY -- as you may have noticed -- I specifically pointed out that "here in California and the US . . . "

Meanwhile, life continues.

Cheers,
Jason

zin1953 wrote:"Not trying Lavazza would be like shopping for a mid sized car and not taking the Camry FIAT for a drive . . ."

Mario, clearly we disagree, but it has nothing to do with ignorance and everything to do with freshness.

I'm surprised that it took so long before "freshness" came up. Freshness is just one parameter among many: varietal, roast, blend, dose, grind, temperature, pressure etc. It should be treated as one parameter among many. If you like a 21 g dose for a single, OK, it's fine with me. If you like the lower pressures of a lever machine, OK, fine with me. If you want your coffee "fresh", OK, fine with me - but I do think you're missing an interesting experience.

Primed by this thread I just bought a 250 pack of Kimbo Espresso Napolitano in my local supermarket. A real nightmare. Roasted in the summer of 2011 (they mention a roast date), black beans, oily, Robusta. And it makes great espresso. Better than the fresh espresso blend of my local roaster. My partner doesn't know anything about espresso. But she can drink it and tell me if it's good. This one she liked a lot.

Is fresh better? If I can choose between a fresh and a stale version of the same coffee, I'll take the fresh version. I can always stale it myself, if I want to. But I'll take a kg of "stale" Italian coffee over most of the "fresh" coffees I've tasted in my life. These are usually interesting and well made, but rarely something I would like to drink more than once or twice.

Peter, just as I cannot speak to the coffee available in Montréal, I certainly can't speak to what is available in Belgium. (Haven't been there since 1967.) But fresh-roasted coffee beans from Italy are virtually impossible to find here in the US; I have never found any, period. But I have always suspected they were much fresher in Europe than here in the States.

OTOH, let's just say your experience with stale Italian-roasted beans versus freshly and locally roasted beans is diametrically opposed to my own personal experience with the same.

Preach on Brother Mario. I just bought a bag from my local roaster and he refuses to specify a roast date. On the second day, I know it was stale. Oh, well.

I have ordered three bar bags of LaVazza to see if I like it. Hey, it's $60, big deal. People with $6k machines and $2k grinders are getting in your face about spending $20. Well, I'm going to try Italian roasted because I've always wondered. I'll not come back with a complaint if I don't like it. Why?

When you lose skin, the lesson has more meat.

Looking forward to the experience,

joat

OK, Jack -- I surrender. (Although I've yet to figure out why my saying -- in effect -- skip the Lavazza; in my experience, it's stale and it sucks causes such as outcry.)

OTOH, if you're buying beans from a vendor who refuses to specify a roast date, who's fault is that?

A few things that grind my gears:
-NA roasters that charge premium prices for their coffee and stipulate that you should be using 22g ( more than three times the Italian norm) after letting the coffee rest for 5-6 days but using it before 2 weeks or it will be stale. Essentially giving you a window of 7-8 days to burn through a pound of coffee ( maybe the 22g doses are to help us with that)

-people who discount over 100 years and four generations of espresso roasting because the guys from the west coast who's main competition is Starbucks say that Italian coffee is stale. ( that last part is just an assumption and probably wrong, it's just that I don't know why someone wouldn't rely on 100 years of experience)

- people who assume that Italians keep the fresh stuff for themselves. Have you ever been to Italy? It took a round of fascism to get he trains to run on time. I'm pretty sure it would take longer for coffee to get from Milano to Napoli than it would to get to California. Most of the Italian coffee available in the supermarkets around here were roasted this summer ( as evidenced by the standard 2 year best before date), same as our Scandinavian friend.
I am sure I'll think of more while I make an espresso ( kimbo coffee on an off brand no frills Italian espresso machine) but this will have to do.

All this because someone thought to try the most popular brand of espresso in the world, what has this world come to.
Buona notte everyone.

Sorry Peter just noticed you were from Belgium and not Scandinavia. I must have had another poster in mind (I think peace cup is from Sweden?) A thousand apologies.

And joatmon, I appreciate the support, but 3 kilos of any coffee is a lot. You may have overdone it my friend.

mariobarba wrote:A few things that grind my gears:

OK, now you are not only presuming facts not in evidence, but -- if this is aimed in my direction -- you are bordering on actually getting insulting . . .

mariobarba wrote:-NA roasters that charge premium prices for their coffee and stipulate that you should be using 22g ( more than three times the Italian norm) after letting the coffee rest for 5-6 days but using it before 2 weeks or it will be stale. Essentially giving you a window of 7-8 days to burn through a pound of coffee ( maybe the 22g doses are to help us with that)

First of all, I do not know of ONE SINGLE ROASTER who "stipulate(s) that you should be using 22g (more than three times the Italian norm) . . . " Now, while there are indeed roasters who recommend that you updose to 18 grams or so, and there may even be some who suggest going to 22 . . . Mario, these are up dosed DOUBLES, or even TRIPLE shots, not singles! Almost no one pulls singles in the US or, in my experience, in Canada. Italians recommend 7 grams for a single; 14 g. for a double. Most North American roasters are recommending 15, 18, or (maybe) even 22 grams for a double -- moving from 14 to 21 grams is 150% of "the Italian norm," not "more than three times."

mariobarba wrote:-people who discount over 100 years and four generations of espresso roasting because the guys from the west coast who's main competition is Starbucks say that Italian coffee is stale. ( that last part is just an assumption and probably wrong, it's just that I don't know why someone wouldn't rely on 100 years of experience)

My main competition isn't Starbucks; Starbucks doesn't even appear on my radar (can't tell you the last time I had it voluntarily). Then again, I'm not a third wave roaster, either. Personally, I'm discounting "over 100 years and four generations of roasting" because I find their coffee to be not very good. Sorry, but things like "100 years" and "four generations" are not a guarantee of quality . . .

mariobarba wrote:- people who assume that Italians keep the fresh stuff for themselves. Have you ever been to Italy? It took a round of fascism to get he trains to run on time. I'm pretty sure it would take longer for coffee to get from Milano to Napoli than it would to get to California. Most of the Italian coffee available in the supermarkets around here were roasted this summer

I never said that the Italians "keep the fresh stuff for themselves," Mario, and I would appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. What I said was

zin1953 wrote:My thoughts would indeed be different were I in Italy and had half-a-chance to actually get fresh Lavazza, but I'm in California . . .

"Half-a-chance" is a far cry from a certainty. But Lavazza in the US is generally transported here by ship, not air freight. Then it is warehoused until sent to a local distributor, where it is warehoused again, until purchased by a market or supermarket (where it might be warehoused again, until the supermarket ships it to a particular store). Since Lavazza is popular in Italy -- or so I've been led to believe -- I feel reasonably safe in concluding it's probably fresher (not fresh, but fresher) in Italy than in the US.

mariobarba wrote:All this because someone thought to try the most popular brand of espresso in the world, what has this world come to.

I'm simply surprised, and somewhat speechless, at your reaction. But perhaps pigs can get commercial pilot's licenses. I have no doubt that some people do like Lavazza, too, but I'm not one of them.

Good night, Mario.

Jason

Nothing personal, it wasn't directed at you and I am sorry you felt that way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL-0F3IAVfo