I don't know why it took so long to switch but it's night and day. No matter what I did Illy always tasted bitter and wasted a lot of time trying to get it right. Black Cat just the opposite.

I will try some Black Cat organic and single origin soon. Hopefully attend one of their Barista classes too.

Has anyone had any luck with Illy. What was your secret. Or is this just the difference between fresh roasted vs. on the shelf for a long time coffee.

gj91 wrote:Has anyone had any luck with Illy.

No. Only the people who don't know any better and think it's supposed to taste that way . . . kinda like *$ . . . .

gj91 wrote:Or is this just the difference between fresh roasted vs. on the shelf for a long time coffee.

Yes.

Given the fact you live in Chicago, I will presume you are picking up your coffee, rather than having it shipped to you. You may also want to try Chicago's other great roaster: Metropolis Coffee. I've never been there, but I have had them ship their coffee to me, and I actually prefer it (personally) -- but that's my taste, and I certainly stop at Intelligentsia whenever I am in LA . . .

Cheers,
Jason

Black Cat is a better coffee than Illy.

However, the two require different technique. Black Cat should be dosed fairly high, 17 to 18 grams on an E61, pulled hot, and kept at ristretto volumes although in the normal 27 to 30 seconds. Illy should be dosed at 14 to 15 grams, pulled cool, run to full normale volume at a brisk 22 to 25 seconds.

Given perfectly dialed in shots, I'd still prefer this year's (and most others) Black Cat to Illy; but I would never call a well pulled shot of Illy bad.

zin1953 wrote:Yes.

Given the fact you live in Chicago, I will presume you are picking up your coffee, rather than having it shipped to you. You may also want to try Chicago's other great roaster: Metropolis Coffee. I've never been there, but I have had them ship their coffee to me, and I actually prefer it (personally) -- but that's my taste, and I certainly stop at Intelligentsia whenever I am in LA . . .

Cheers,
Jason

I'm in the burbs so I had it shipped but it's pretty much next day delivery. I may need to work out a pickup schedule. I'm drinking more espresso now. I really want to go to their barista class.

I will try Metropolis. Actually another_jim mentioned is a place to compare espresso shots.

another_jim wrote:Black Cat is a better coffee than Illy.

However, the two require different technique. Black Cat should be dosed fairly high, 17 to 18 grams on an E61, pulled hot, and kept at ristretto volumes although in the normal 27 to 30 seconds. Illy should be dosed at 14 to 15 grams, pulled cool, run to full normale volume at a brisk 22 to 25 seconds.

Given perfectly dialed in shots, I'd still prefer this year's (and most others) Black Cat to Illy; but I would never call a well pulled shot of Illy bad.

When I ordered the Black Cat I did call and ask for the best way to pull a shot - Jim you are right on. I think I need to tighten up the grind a little for a longer pull.

So after I got the temp info I checked Illy and was surprised at their optimal temp - definitely on the cool side of the spectrum. Didn't give a recommended dose but I was thinking Italian style, fine grind and close to 14g and tamp to level. I was going to try this to see how it tasted. The temp is going to be the tough part.

The only good thing about all the Illy coffee I bought are the nice espresso cups they gave me for free.

On your Andreja, just run water through the group before pulling the shot. When the water stops boiling, start timing. Two seconds past boil is hot, six seconds is usually cool, and four is usually medium. However, this is something worth learning precisely for your machine. There's a very cool instrument for doing this.

EricS adapter is not just recommended...it should be required! It takes any guess work out of pulling shots (my opinion).

As for Black Cat...it's really hit or miss depending on the blend at the time. Years ago it was really good, and I think it's gone south ever since. If it's back to what it was three years ago, let me know, and I'll give it another shot. Until then I'll stick with my Barefoot's The Boss and a few others that circulate in my grinder.

Taste is very subjective...the reason for the second paragraph is to try to entice you to branch out a little since you may be blown away by some of the other coffee you try. In the end, if you're happy, that's all that counts.

Congrats on kicking up your espresso a notch.

Does anyone wonder what kind of shot Illy beans would yield if you could try them within one week of the roast date? I think it is fine coffee that is just wayyyyyy beyond its 'real' freshness date. I dont care what they do to the can (i.e. nitrogen or whatever) the fact is that I do not believe that any bean could possibly fresh one or two years after roasting. I wonder how my personal fav Belle Espresso from Klatch would do when subject to the same conditions and time in can.

TimEggers wrote:The "very cool instrument" is very higly recommended.

Way ahead of you guys, Eric's temp gauge is a must, and should be required with these type of machines. For me it's a 4oz flush and maybe a blind flush.

I would like to figure out how to get the Faema adjustable thermosyphon into this machine to slow the temp to just a single 2 oz flush. I already bugged Eric about this...

arcangel6 wrote:Does anyone wonder what kind of shot Illy beans would yield if you could try them within one week of the roast date? I think it is fine coffee that is just wayyyyyy beyond its 'real' freshness date. I dont care what they do to the can (i.e. nitrogen or whatever) the fact is that I do not believe that any bean could possibly fresh one or two years after roasting. I wonder how my personal fav Belle Espresso from Klatch would do when subject to the same conditions and time in can.

I agree, I bet it would be just fine. I am one of those people who got suckered into their packaging process - what a dumb ass. I would bet the cans I have are at minimum 6 months old.

Yeah, it really is a shame, especially when you consider that they (Illy) have invested quite allot of time and effort into processing and packaging. I believe that they have a device that checks every single bean. I think that they are catering to a very different market.

There are many espresso consumers in Europe and the US that like Illy and Lavazza. Lavazza is a big seller. The fact is that they are using beans that would be stale by standards from maniacs like me and 'some' of the other folks on forums such as this. However, this is not like the digital versus analog music debate (which is better sounding). I could never tell the difference! With fresh versus stale coffee beans there is NO argument once you experience the difference with a properly extracted shot. It really is a no brainer.

I think most folks simply do not know. They have never experience magic of a properly extracted shot using the freshest roasted coffee of the best blends (i.e. Belle, etc.). Consider that there are many people in the US who LOVE that overroasted bitter Starbucks espresso.

I wonder if ignorance is bliss.

Joe

I'm guessing this slamming of Illy is probably due more to people not pulling it right than the coffee itself. Illy is a a North Italian Espresso, not a "North Italian Espresso" made in Seattle or Chicago, but the real thing. It needs to be pulled at 14 grams, at 90C, and at 50ml in 25 seconds -- no ifs ands or buts. If you can't manage that; you haven't pulled it right. If you don't like light roasts and acidic coffees, don't judge. The closest thing to this style of espresso is the way Terroir roasts. Terroir is not everyone's cup of tea; but if you want to understand how Illy stacks up to the best, you need to compare it to Terroir's espresso blends.

That being said, Illy tastes fairly fresh for a few days after opening the whole bean containers, but it stales quite quickly, and imo, even when pulled perfectly, it doesn't quite match up to the best blends in the US.

gj91 wrote:I would like to figure out how to get the Faema adjustable thermosyphon into this machine to slow the temp to just a single 2 oz flush. I already bugged Eric about this...

If you aren't pulling milk drinks or don't mind a slower time doing so, turn down your boiler pressure. You can easily adjust it for a 2 oz flush. And on the other end of the spectrum, you can crank it up to have a longer flush but more steaming power.

I tried doing this but I couldn't get the Sirai to budge in temp and I tried a few times. I know you are supposed to let it sit after you make small adjustments. Am I supposed to shoot for the pressurestat to kick in or where it stops. The high side is 1.9 - everything in the green. I think I am around 1.1, but I was trying to get it down below 1 to say .09 or so. I don't mind the slow steaming.

arcangel6 wrote:I wonder if ignorance is bliss.

I don't. It is.

Since discovering fresh coffee, I've often wished I could tolerate the dreck that gets served around here.

I used to like having a coffee at the diner. Now... not so much.

arcangel6 wrote:Does anyone wonder what kind of shot Illy beans would yield if you could try them within one week of the roast date?

Since Illy was my go-to bean before I really discovered specialty coffee, I often wondered the same thing. As far as I know Illy contains primarily pulped natural coffee from the large and technologically-advanced Daterra farm in Brazil. I've also read that it contains Indian (probably monsooned malabar or mysore), Ethiopian (probably Yirg), and various Centrals.

But if you're looking for a "fresh Illy" experience, I think you can approximate it by trying some medium-light roasts of Brazil Daterra. There are several good roasters offering a "Daterra Reserve" suitable for espresso; Caffe Fresco's was a favorite of mine for a while.

another_jim wrote:Black Cat is a better coffee than Illy.

However, the two require different technique. Black Cat should be dosed fairly high, 17 to 18 grams on an E61, pulled hot, and kept at ristretto volumes although in the normal 27 to 30 seconds. Illy should be dosed at 14 to 15 grams, pulled cool, run to full normale volume at a brisk 22 to 25 seconds.

I knew there were adjustments required when switching beans, but today I picked up some Black Cat (whole foods - roast date 9.30 ) and I can't even get it to pull a shot (basically it just drips). I've tried adjusting dosage as recommended in this post, tamp pressure (lightened up), but I am at a loss. I haven't tried Black Cat in a while, but I am dumbfounded at how drastic the changes I am making, with the only variable being a bean change.

Sum it up: Anita. only variable changed : switched from local roasted bean to Black Cat ( roasted 9.30). It just drips, maybe 5 drops or so in 30 secs. Not even a drinkable ristretto. I've adjusted the grind 5 units, coarser. I've tamped lighter, barely at all. Still no luck.

You'll need to adjust the grinder coarser.

Make large adjustments.. and see what happens. If 5 notches still chokes.. go 15 notches. Sometimes the difference in grind setting from two different beans is more then you would think.

Rybolt wrote:I knew there were adjustments required when switching beans, but today I picked up some Black Cat (whole foods - roast date 9.30 ) and I can't even get it to pull a shot (basically it just drips). I've tried adjusting dosage as recommended in this post, tamp pressure (lightened up), but I am at a loss. I haven't tried Black Cat in a while, but I am dumbfounded at how drastic the changes I am making, with the only variable being a bean change.

Sum it up: Anita. only variable changed : switched from local roasted bean to Black Cat ( roasted 9.30). It just drips, maybe 5 drops or so in 30 secs. Not even a drinkable ristretto. I've adjusted the grind 5 units, coarser. I've tamped lighter, barely at all. Still no luck.

Rybolt, "local roasted" identifies place, not time (i.e. not the age of the roast). My local roaster has bags on the shelf three weeks old! Your Black Cat is only a few days old, i.e. very fresh, possibly not even ready for use yet. A fresh roast requires a coarser grind, and you go finer as the roast ages. Your grinder may be dialed in for a.....well-aged... roast.