I was going to post in the "Have you seen the movie "The Perfect Cappuccino"?" but I felt it was getting a bit high-jacky with all the Starbucks comments. Anyhow I just wanted to throw my 2c in regarding SB.

I dislike the SB product just as much as the average HB'er or CG'er or what have you. I won't go as far as saying I dislike the company though because they do cater to a particular market very well and more importantly, help to raise coffee awareness in general. I think there's many enthusiasts out there (myself included) who would not have seen the espresso forest had they not begun by looking at the Starbucks trees.

nixter wrote: more importantly, help to raise coffee awareness in general. I think there's many enthusiasts out there (myself included) who would not have seen the espresso forest had they not begun by looking at the Starbucks trees.

And then there is the other side of the coin.
While they have drawn many people's attention to coffee, that is a great responsibility and they have dropped the ball. They are still the self-described authority on coffee, and because they are the biggest and loudest lout on the block, they tend to sway people's opinions. Now that they have little or nothing to do with decent coffee, that is a bad thing (tm).
And for those that were battling bad coffee, long before the Green Monster reared her head, with a steam-toy and imported Italian pre-ground coffee, graduating to the ultimate in cafficianado kit, a Krups burr grinder (so now I could grind my own imported Italian roasted beans!) who heard the Siren's call and waited impatiently for a store near us to open up, I was absolutely ready to be a Buck-Head for life. Finally, I could do away with all the trappings and kit for a simple cuppa joe, and there would be a qualified and trained, knowledgeable and friendly, armed and dangerous barista on every street corner and I would ahvv eto do nothing more than cross the street for a great cappuccino.
Well, I guess my first meeting with Howie shoulda been a clue. He told me that the purchase of Torrefazione Coffee in Seattle wouldn't change anything, that their shops wouldn't be affected, nor would their distribution or their sales.
He lied.
My next trip to Seattle, I biked to one, and then another, and then the next Torrefazione shop, only to find butcher paper in every window. All had been closed, and they'd been pulled from my local hippie grocery by the time I returned to Tucson.
Shortly thereafter, each and every Starbucks shop had been invaded by Superauto Pods. From the outside, all the shops still looked like Starbuckses, but inside the employees and the machines had been replaced by almost exact duplicates, but the duplicates were unfamiliar with the duties and performance of baristi and espresso machines. What they produced, in their own "I'm not a coffee server, I'm really an artist" way was almost as Douglas Adams would say, but not quite exactly unlike espresso.

Starbucks is more of a has-been than Fat Elvis.

I don't believe Starbucks can be both a major corporation that is doing the most for it's shareholders AND be faithful to the coffee aficionado. It just can't be done. There are the smaller guys to fill that role. I also don't believe they are dropping the ball, just ask the shareholders. I think you have to appreciate what Starbucks is and is not. Why doesn't Ferrari make a sub compact? Why doesn't Hyundai make a Super car? Unless you want to fault SB purely for being a large corp then you have to accept a few realities. The employee turnover rate at starbucks is staggering. It's just not financially feasible to train each new employee in the art of the barista. Even if you did, how many would listen? How many would care? How many would actually be good at it? SB needs to serve a reproducible product each and every time or they will lose customers, even at the expense of quality. Starbucks is NOT the little corner cafe with the barista who is passionate about what he/she does. Starbucks IS a major corporation that is fiscally responsible to it's shareholders and markets a product very successfully, and for that I have to respect them. In fact they have Hyundai and Ferrari beat because they are selling Hyundais at Ferrari prices!

Well Said!

nixter wrote:Starbucks is NOT the little corner cafe with the barista who is passionate about what he/she does. Starbucks IS a major corporation that is fiscally responsible to it's shareholders and markets a product very successfully, and for that I have to respect them.

I agree and can't really add much to that. To touch on an earlier point, I would say I am glad Starbucks is around. If fulfills a need for many folks, providing sweet caffeinated beverages in forms slightly less mirthless than the instant coffee jar in the break room.

Being an aficionado is a process. I think there was a time for nearly everyone when they got something from Starbucks they thought was pretty great. Maybe it was a long time ago for most. For me it was back in 1989 when I got a pound of aged Sumatran beans: it was my introduction to aged coffee and I was blown away. So, thanks for being there when I needed you, Starbucks! I haven't been to Starbucks in years and I don't plan to go back soon, but I have nothing against them and am glad they helped me make some memories.

We all owe Starbuck's a debt to one degree or another. But, while they may be a wonderful corporation to their shareholders regarding income generation, they are no longer a good coffee shop. There is a reason you never see anyone actually order a straight espresso at these places anymore.

Very true. I used to order a quad at the SB drive-through every morning back when I was getting up at 530am to commute. I would dump sugar and a little cream and I thought this was perfect. Then they switched to the super autos and my quads starting tasting awful. Haven't had one since.

There are any number of reasons to hate dislike (and to make fun of) Starbucks, and most seem completely justifiable -- whether from the customer's or the stockholder's point-of-view. But Mark is quite right when he said "we all owe Starbuck's a debt to one degree or another."

Starbucks is a bit like Gallo. Regardless of one's political point-of-view, regardless of one's personal wine likes/dislikes, regardless of one's personal experience (or lack thereof) with the myriad of wines produced by Gallo, the entire California wine industry (and the American wine drinking public) owes a huge debt of gratitude to Gallo. No single winery, no single family, has had a bigger impact on the US, on its winemaking, on its winedrinking than Gallo*.

Starbucks is similar. They were far from the first coffee chain to offer "premium" roast coffees and espresso. After all, Alfred Peet started Peet's Coffee & Tea (originally known as "Peet's Coffee, Tea & Spices) in 1966 in Berkeley, CA. Three years earlier, Herbert B. Hyman founded The Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf in Los Angeles. And San Franciscans know that wonderful North Beach institution, Graffeo, was founded in 1935, and Freed, Teller & Freed was a San Francisco landmark on Polk St. from 1899 to 1989 -- until they moved to South San Francisco in the aftermath of the Loma Prieta earthquake. (And these four examples deal solely with California; I have no doubt other examples can be cited for other cities/states.)

But Starbucks was the first one to mass-market espresso (OK, lattès!) in the US and to successfully make Mr. & Mrs. Average American forget about instant, forget about Melita, and move towards higher quality coffee. And, with any luck, they continue to grow -- moving beyond Starbucks and into the "third wave," into making their espresso at home, and so on . . .

Would Seattle have such a huge, active "coffee scene" as it does were it not for Starbucks? Would America as a whole?

I think not.

Cheers,
Jason

* The Mondavi family would come second, IMHO.

zin1953 wrote:Would Seattle have such a huge, active "coffee scene" as it does were it not for Starbucks? Would America as a whole?

I think not.

Would I care about coffee like I do if not for Starbucks? Not likely, which is why I never bash them, and still drink their coffee at times.

nixter wrote:Why doesn't Ferrari make a sub compact?

Ferrari is in it to race. Period. The only reason (read: ONLY!) that they sell cars to consumers is to support their on-track endeavours. If they had other sources of income, Ferrari production models for consumers would disappear. Apples and oranges... if you want to compare business models, your examples should at least have some relevance to one another. Imagine a roaster and shop whose only goal was to win the WBC every year. Didn't care if he sold beans, or sold coffee out of his shops, just that his baristi were the WBC winners, and coffee sales went to support those baristi. That'd be Ferrari of espresso.

The employee turnover rate at starbucks is staggering. It's just not financially feasible to train each new employee in the art of the barista. Even if you did, how many would listen? How many would care? How many would actually be good at it? SB needs to serve a reproducible product each and every time or they will lose customers, even at the expense of quality.

You're describing the symptoms of the illness. If Starbucks aimed for the long-term success to insure that the brand stayed strong and of good quality, they'd still be one of the best. They wouldn't have made so much cash over such a short period of time, but the brand wouldn't have suffered (check recent stock traces over the last coupla years) and they wouldn't be fighting clowns and donut chefs for the specialty coffee title.

In fact they have Hyundai and Ferrari beat because they are selling Hyundais at Ferrari prices!

You're suggesting that their customers are paying for Ferrari's and are getting Hyundai's, and that that's OK?
It's the 'Dairyman's Dinner' paradox. "Yay! Steak again!"
It can only go on for so long, taking your profits our of sustainability. Starbucks is on the verge of becoming the equivalent of a convenience store.
Whatever they did in the past is no penance for the sins they've committed today.

Psyd wrote:Imagine a roaster and shop whose only goal was to win the WBC every year. Didn't care if he sold beans, or sold coffee out of his shops, just that his baristi were the WBC winners, and coffee sales went to support those baristi. That'd be Ferrari of espresso.

This shop is located in down town Dreamland, next to a Shetland Unicorn ranch owned by a leprechaun who drives a flying car.