I'm relatively new to espresso making (4 months), before I was used to the local shop espresso then started doing mine. After trying countless fresh beans (black cat, red bird, local roaster), countless italian (illy, lavazza, caffe borbone) and top rated coffee shops in NYC, I've come to the conclusion that the Italian ones not only taste better but also the shot comes out better and easier to dial in, maybe my pallet is not there yet but the fresh coffee beans always give me a citrus almost sour taste not to mention they are a bitch to dial in as they get stale.. I'm still in the hunt for that sweet (without sugar) espresso but the bitter is always the predominant flavor, I'm posting this to see if anyone is in the same boat and what have you learned in your espresso making journey. The following videos are some of my most decent shot pulling espressos from Redbird blue jaguar (fresh roasted) and Caffe Borbone (italian), I guess i'm a bit disappointed on what I was expecting out of fresh beans, the bright side is I won't be spending a fortune on fresh beans considering Italian one I buy is 1/2 the price.

PS- don't mind the background noise

RedBird Blue Jaguar 4 days roast date Caffe Borbone 5 months roast date

Try resting the rebird more than a few days for starters .

It could be that I have an unsophisticated palate, but I also often prefer Italian espresso blends of the micro roasters. Provided that the Italian beans are properly sealed when purchased, and that the seller rotates their stock, the arrive here in Sweden in a very "fresh" state and stay good for a whole kilo if frozen directly after opening. I go through a kg every two weeks and have done so for years, and still really enjoy them. There is an endless variety of Italian roasters to try too.

peacecup wrote:It could be that I have an unsophisticated pallet, but I also often prefer Italian espresso blends of the micro roasters.

Usually Italian roasts are easier to extract than 3rd wave roasts. And by easier I mean a lot easier. To properly extract a nice Scandinavian roast takes a whole lot of skill. Which I'm not implying that you might lack. Just making a notion. They are a different ball game.

There's nothing wrong with the Italian roasters if you like what they represent, which is comfort, chocolate, nuts, etc. They're affordable and consistent, and as mentioned above good if you freeze immediately after opening. There was a lengthy discussion in "2-month-old-kimbo-from-italy-produces-great-espresso-i-am-confused". They're right in my wheelhouse, so I routinely mix an Italian blend into my rotation. I always mention espressozone.com in these threads because of their selection, prices and shipping.

Interestingly, I used to really like Redbird a few years ago, but I feel it's changed. I never cared for Blue Jaguar. HOWEVER, I recently tried their Daterra Sweet Blue (which is a component of Blue Jaguar), which you can get from other roasters as well, and I love it. It's a sweet chocolate bomb. Some shots, I would swear there was a little sugar added. I pull it very cool, about 195-196F

From the videos - there seems to be a very different technique between the two. I haven't used either of these beans, but here's my 0.02:

Your Redbird has 16g in, 31.6g out and 25s of pull time.

The Borbone - you had 16g in, 24g out and a super long pull of 40s from the time you started the pump.

The extractions are going to be very different. The Redbird is extracting so much faster than the Borbone, that it is likely very under extracted and that's what is leading to the sourness.

Now a 1:2 brew ratio in 25s would likely be a little under extracted, but it is within the common range.

I'm partly wondering whether your machine is operating at a good pressure/temperature, thus leading to the under extraction?

The Borbone appears to be a darker roast, which would of course, greatly reduce any acidity/sourness in the cup, thus it is more forgiving.

What happens if you change the grind/dose of the Redbird in order to lengthen the extraction time so that your 1:2 ratio happens in 30s (or perhaps a little longer in your case)?

What happens if you change the grind/dose of the Italian beans to get a 1:2 ratio in 25-30s, rather than the 1:1.5 you're getting in 40s?

It is certainly OK to prefer a darker roast with little brightness or acidity, many people do. But there's something to be said about espresso which has character beyond the roasty/sweet flavors. It is harder to dial in, but it is rewarding to experience something with a spectrum of flavor and aroma in the cup.

On the extractions and the Vario - I have a Vario too and I have my quibbles with it. One quirk I've learned is that I need to push on the macro lever to keep it from shifting. If your levers move on their own during grinding, Baratza has a shim kit to fix that.

But even so, my well-worn Vario needs a little assist in the form of holding the macro lever by pushing it in while grinding sometimes to make it consistent. A little shift in the macro lever makes a big change to the grind. If it is moving at all in the grind, try pushing it from the side (like you're installing the lever knob) so it is firmly in the notch. It makes a difference.

High roasts are softer and easier to grind than lighter ones. It may be the grinder is becoming a hidden factor here. I recently had issues with this myself and the Vario.

The Redbird extraction is uneven, which tends to indicate a grinder issue at play, which can also make things sour. I don't do any of the grooming steps you do, but just holding the lever in place so it cannot shift seems to help the Vario grind much more evenly.

I just happen to have a video for those 2 but I've tried the redbird in finer grind with up to 40 secs of brew time and the borbone with coarser and 25 sec which still gives me the predominant flavor on both either way I go, bitter with borbone and sour/citruis with redbird. I'll keep playing with it but I'm still in the hunt for that no sugar espresso cause as of now I have to add sugar on every shot to make it tasty (very lil sugar just enough to get a sweet taste) if you guys know of a specific brand/type of beans I can try to get that sweet/milk chocolate note I would greatly appreciate it and won't hold you responsible! I'll do a new video with same technique on both and post it.

PS- the rancilio silvia/vario are relatively new (4months old)

If you want chocolate notes with little-to-no acidity, Blue Bottle Hayes Valley Espresso would be a good one to try. It is pretty forgiving and when pulled right, is as sweet/roasty/chocolaty as they come.

So - on the Silvia.

These seem to come from the factory with an unusually and very high brew pressure setting. My understanding is that they are set for 12 bar in order to work well with coffee pods.

It doesn't come with a gauge, but if you check around, there are many threads, videos, web pages about setting the Silivia's OPV valve to produce about 9-bar while brewing.

I suspect that if you adjust the brewing pressure to get about 8.5-9.0 bar during normal brewing conditions, it will be far easier to dial in espresso shots with the flavor profiles you are looking for.

I have noticed the water comes out really fast without having portafilter when I'm temp surfing, I'll lower the pressure to 9 1/5 see if that helps on the taste. Here are two videos made back to back and taste still same, sour/citruis on redbird and strong/bitter on borbone which I prefer so far.

PS- dont mind background noise lol and mess in the kitchen!


Borbone Redbird 9.5 bars of pressure

try metropolis coffee
way better then red bird