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Phosphoric Acid determination

Postby SL28ave on Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:40 pm

Am I so lucky that this procedure will work for coffee?

I'll brew some coffee with normal procedure. Then dilute it to 1 part brewed coffee : 15 parts distilled water. Take 5 mL of this solution. Add 6 drops of a 45% sulfuric acid, N/S% ammonium heptamolybdate solution. Shake. Then add six drops of a 97% glycerol, 3% anhydrous stannous chloride solution. Shake. Wait three minutes. Note the depth of blue/green color (phosphomolybdenum blue). Would the blue/green correlate to Phosphoric acid?

I'm no chemist. I'm describing this:
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Postby another_jim on Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:09 am

You probably know this ... Table two in Joseph's acid section shows roughly 75 ppm phsophoric acid in coffee, while the test is only good up to 10 ppm. If you do the correct dilutions, it might work. But there's a ton of reagents in coffee, including organo-phosphates, which may stop it from working.

You may be better off trying to sweet talk a Chem lab into running GC/MS on the sample. The biggest sex appeal is in anything potentially publishable

The health police has currently declared war on phosphoric acid, so you may be better off playing down this aspect of your namesake bean :P
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Postby iginfect on Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:12 am

Whats the deal in testing for phosphate? It with calcium makes up our bones, is involved in our bodies producing energy etc and is fundamental in our diets. Cola beverages that remove paint from your car etc are acidic in part from phosphoric acid.

Marvin
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Postby SL28ave on Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:46 pm

Thanks, Jim!

It's weird. Page 6 of this paper and the conclusion suggest Kenyan coffee isn't all that high in phosphoric acid and the phosphate level is inverse or insignificant to perceived acidity (my amateur interpretation). http://www.coffeeresearch.org/research/phosphate1.pdf

At SCAA conference a few years ago, I think there was an article saying SL28s are higher in phosphoric acid, but for the life of me I can't find it on Google.
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Postby SL28ave on Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:52 pm

iginfect wrote:Whats the deal in testing for phosphate? It with calcium makes up our bones, is involved in our bodies producing energy etc and is fundamental in our diets. Cola beverages that remove paint from your car etc are acidic in part from phosphoric acid.


Phosphoric acid is simply tri-protonated phosphate (you prob knew that). I like how aqueous phosphoric acid tastes; austere. I've heard Kenyan coffees are high in phosphoric acid. I love Kenyan coffees. Seeds tend to store phosphate in the form of inositol-hexakiphosphate, which is a health concern at least when it comes to cereals. I haven't heard any health concerns regarding free phosphate or phosphoric acid.
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Postby another_jim on Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:04 pm

In his SCAA acids course, Joseph Rivera talks about a project the CQI did where they identified high phosphoric acid as being the main difference between high quality SL28 and low quality RU11 plantings. Reference 2 in the paper you cite: Rivera, J. Organic Acid Analysis of Kenya SL 28 and other Cultivars. SCI Technical Papers, 1997, 5-9 is probably the source.

The paper makes for an interesting puzzle since Joseph's story jibes with the food uses of phosphoric acid, while the paper's does not. Phosphoric acid is a soft drink additive, since it lends the acidic "sparkle" without the sourness of organic acids; so phosphoric acid is the one which doesn't need to be sweetened; malic, tartaric, acetic and citric do.

Here's a suggestion: The paper says phosphoric acid rises as the coffee gets less acidic, gets older, or gets roasted darker -- so, in effect, they've discovered a staleness marker. In other words, the level of phosphoric acid isn't rising in these coffees, all the other solubles are dropping as their molecules either oxidize into insoluble rust or polymerize into brown goo. Phosphates just happen to be the most shelf stable soluble in coffee, so as it stales, the proportion of phosphate solubles rises.

But it could still be that RU11 has a problem that shows up by its inability to fix soil phosphates.

In other words, I think both the papers are correct in the chemistry. Joseph's work certainly slipped into the post hoc fallacy, confusing the symptom or correlate of higher phosphoric acid levels in SL28 for the cause of its better taste. The paper you cite also flirts with post hoc when it implies that differing phosphoric acid levels are a basic characteristic of the different coffees, rather than their terroirs (e.g. fertilizer use, perhaps lower in forest coffees, higher in plantation coffees) and processing. No fault lies in either author -- mistaking correlates for causes is a necessary occupational hazard for scientists, and the main reason results have to be replicated using other methods.

Thanks for the reference.
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