Looking for a chocolate-y not bitter espresso.....recommendations?

by **green_241** on Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:17 pm

I'm looking for recommendations of espresso to try-especially those with a lot of depth, a bit (or alot) chocolate-y, and very low bitterness....any suggestions? Thanks!

by **another_jim** on Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:11 pm

Coffee is predominantly bitter, nearly as bitter as unsweetened chocolate :wink:

Welcome to the board. My point is that it's easier to find the right espresso when you know what tastes you seek. People look for two things in espresso: the right sort of bitterness, which is a question of taste; and a balanced shot, which is a question of quality.

Most espresso served in run of the mill cafes is unbalanced, and their bitterness is thoroughly unpleasant. Bitterness needs to be balanced with sweetness and optionally, some lively acidity. For poor espresso, adding sugar is absolutely necessary. This is not a disgrace in an Italian cafe serving 80 cent per shot, high percentage Robusta coffees -- they are doing the best within their budget. But it is a disgrace for a cafe that serves specialty coffee; because specialty coffee is naturally sweet enough to balance the bitterness and acidity, and they are screwing that up in the roast or shot preparation. All the roasters and coffees recommended here at HB are superb in this respect.

Once the coffee is balanced, you may still prefer some flavors to others. Lighter roasted espresso has apricot, floral, and citrus tastes on top, backed up by toasty, woody, and honey like flavors underneath. Our favorite roasters typically offer coffees like this as "Single Origin" specials. The medium roasted coffees have some berry flavors on top, with caramel and chocolate flavors underneath. The main blends of our favorite roasters typically fall in this class. A good dark roasted blend has dried fruit flavors and lemon peel twist on top; and spice, dark molasses, and peaty flavors underneath. Oddly enough, nobody here has any great dark blend tips; it seems when people get away from Starbucks, and become coffee connoisseurs, they entirely avoid darker roasts, whether good or bad. A few years back, Dallis Brothers made a blend like this called Five Points, but I don't know if it's still around.

I hope this gets you started.

by HB on Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:10 pm

another_jim wrote:A good dark roasted blend has dried fruit flavors and lemon peel twist on top; and spice, dark molasses, and peaty flavors underneath.

Reminds me of two of my favorite darker roasted coffees: Paradise Roasters Havana Reserve and Counter Culture La Forza. Neither of these are dark in the Peets or Starbucks sense, but they do have distinct roast notes and low acidity. The former is more complex than the latter; for the uninitiated, I recommend La Forza.

by **hperry** on Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:53 pm

green_241 wrote:I'm looking for recommendations of espresso to try-especially those with a lot of depth, a bit (or alot) chocolate-y, and very low bitterness....any suggestions? Thanks!

Might want to try PT's Gizmo.

by **drdna** on Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:42 pm

More generally, I have had great success with blends that have a goodly amount of Ethiopian coffee in them. Again, a huge over generalization, but I have found a number of these Ethiopian coffees to give a nice complex chocolaty cup, with a nice dark chocolate bittersweetness, less the clean cup citrus nerve.

by **IMAWriter** on Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:05 am

green_241 wrote:I'm looking for recommendations of espresso to try-especially those with a lot of depth, a bit (or alot) chocolate-y, and very low bitterness....any suggestions? Thanks!

As usual, Jim's treatise is interesting and thoughtful.
If I may also suggest, read some of the discussions right here under "Coffees" and at CG.com.
I would recommend Klatch's "Belle Espresso", and Velton Coffee Roaster's "Bonsai" blend...also Toscano, from Counter Culture.
The best price comes from Velton's.
These fit your description, but there are literally dozens of other options, as you will undoubtedly read on this thread.
Don't discount a SO (single origin) like a Brazilian Yellow Cochiera. Jim or others might know where to purchase roasted. I tend to home roast, mainly.

by **shadowfax** on Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:03 am

hperry wrote:Might want to try PT's Gizmo.

AKA Chocolate Candy at my home coffee bar. it seemed about as sweet and chocolaty as I've ever had from an espresso... and easy to work with too (my original comments). I second that recommendation.

by **malachi** on Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:24 pm

In my experience to date, the majority of people who say that they want a coffee that is not bitter are in fact not talking about true "bitter" as a flavour. Usually, they're describing the mix of astringency, sourness, bitterness, phenolic and harsh (dirty) flavours that you get from the majority of coffee bars in the US.

Before suggesting a possible espresso for you to try - perhaps you could provide some examples of coffees you do like? And perhaps some additional flavour profile information that can give us insight into your like/dislike of true bitterness? Beers you like and dislike is a good starting point in my experience.

by **timo888** on Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:09 pm

Dark roasts I'd recommend: Caffe D'Arte Capri and Taormina.

by **IMAWriter** on Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:06 pm

timo888 wrote:Dark roasts I'd recommend: Caffe D'Arte Capri and Taormina.

Interestingly in that dark vein, I'll suggest CCM's espresso blend. Dark, oily, and surprisingly not bitter.

by **blueface** on Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:18 am

That would be single origin Yemen Mocha...a very distinct cocoa finish...it leaves an aftertaste..strong aroma too :lol:

by **espressme** on Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:43 am

timo888 wrote:Dark roasts I'd recommend: Caffe D'Arte Capri and Taormina.

Seconded on the Capri, the Taormina was a bit too strong for my taste buds. Timmo started me on the Caffe D'Arte roasts. I can keep a bag in the freezer for a fill-in while a new roast rests or till I get to a good local roaster and it has not gone far down in quality.
I do like the Ethiopian coffees as SOs. To get the full Chocolate bomb effect, they really want a good temperature control while pulling.Yerghacheff is my favorite. Korati has a wonderful Blueberry smell and taste.
-Richard

by **timo888** on Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:43 am

I'm just trying some Brazilian roast now from CCM, and it is good, and sold at a price that cannot be beat ($5.95/pound plus shipping), but it is not IMO a roast of distinction. I got more than I paid for but less than I'd hoped for.

Caffe D'Arte lack a flashy website but their roasts have panache and depth. I consider them top tier, if rare micro-lot coffees are excluded from consideration.

What distinguishes Caffe D'Arte from most American roasters is that they add top quality robusta beans to their espresso roasts and blends; most American artisanal roasters eschew robusta, though Paradise has a fine (but finicky) Indian SO robusta (yet I think their espresso roasts have been 100% arabica). http://www.paradiseroasters.com/s-o-espresso-india-cxr

I've made the point before that a creator of espresso blends ought to know his robusta as a brewer knows his hops. Or to shift metaphors: if there were an espresso-Olympics, and I were on the Committee, creating a blend that used robusta would be mandatory like the figure-8 for the skaters. Some people refuse to drink robusta the way some people will not drink Zinfandel.

by **IMAWriter** on Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:22 pm

Timmo...there IS Robusta in Paradise Roaster's "Espresso Classico"
I guess THEY know their robusta.

by **misterdoggy** on Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:28 pm

This was what I was looking for too. The closest I have come is a Eithiopian Moka Harara 100% arabica that has had a light roast...

Very Chocolate ....

by **timo888** on Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:10 pm

IMAWriter wrote:Timmo...there IS Robusta in Paradise Roaster's "Espresso Classico"
I guess THEY know their robusta.

I've been talking up the merits of robusta here on H-B.com for a while, despite some colorful prose from those who dislike it with a passion -- they save their best metaphors for robusta-bashing :wink:

Though I could be mistaken, the espresso from Paradise used to be 100% arabica, though I see now that the Indian is listed at 10%. Certainly most sponsors of H-B.com had been avoiding robusta in their blends. That may be changing. Maybe robusta is enjoying a renascence :!:

by **IMAWriter** on Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:37 am

For sure, the quality of robusta has evidently improved, based upon reviews and such. I enjoy Dolce from Vivace, which contains a bit of robusta. I don't use it in my home roasts, but others do. Just a matter of taste, I guess.

by **another_jim** on Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:34 am

timo888 wrote:I've made the point before that a creator of espresso blends ought to know his robusta as a brewer knows his hops. Or to shift metaphors: if there were an espresso-Olympics, and I were on the Committee, creating a blend that used robusta would be mandatory like the figure-8 for the skaters. Some people refuse to drink robusta the way some people will not drink Zinfandel.

But why make the point on this thread? I cup a lot of robustas. The bad ones taste rubbery; the good ones taste nutty and/or of smoky molasses. It's not a coffee I would pick for adding chocalate flavors.

by **timo888** on Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:56 am

another_jim wrote:But why make the point [that one shouldn't look down upon robusta] on this thread? ...the good ones taste nutty and/or of smoky molasses. It's not a coffee I would pick for adding chocalate flavors

Jim, I see why you ask, but it's not as much a non-sequitur as it appears to be.

First, because in response to the OP's request for espresso with "a lot of depth, a bit (or alot) chocolate-y, and very low bitterness" I had recommended Caffe D'Arte; the OP was definite about depth and low bitterness and had given both greater weight than he had given chocolate, even though chocolate appears in the subject line.

Second, because Rob (aka IMAWriter) then recommended CCM as being "in that dark vein". CCM has one espresso blend. Caffe D'Arte has six. I believe one of the things that distinguishes each of Caffe D'Arte's espresso roasts is the proportion of robusta used. The signature light 100% arabica espresso blends of many American artisanal roasters are quite alike, so that Dan's buddy "Joe espresso drinker" might not be able to tell them apart, or would certainly notice the similarities even if able to distinguish them one from the other; Caffe D'Arte's Firenze and other darker roasts would stand out as something quite different.

I have an eclectic palate, so maybe I'm not best suited to give advice, but I think if one likes the taste of Intelligentsia's Black Cat, one would probably also enjoy Firenze or Parioli.

by **IMAWriter** on Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:24 pm

Timmo said "
Second, because Rob (aka IMAWriter) then recommended CCM as being "in that dark vein". CCM has one espresso blend. Caffe D'Arte has six."
------------------------------------------------
So, does that mean because Mercedes offers xxxx# of models and GM offers xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx# that the Mercedes has no merit?
Hard to remember, but I believe the OP also mentioned the word dark or darker as a preference. Too lazy to go back and look, but I assume that's why I posted the CCM...not so much as MY preference, but as a suggestion.
For that matter, klatch has 4 espresso blends at all times, plus SO's, and several other roasters (Counter Culture is another) feature at least 3 different espresso options.
Robusta is a matter of taste, as are ALL things. I greatly enjoy Dolce from Vivace (has robusta) while others don't. No one right, no one wrong.


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