I have been buying my beans from a cafe which boasts on site roasting. I usually go on the roasting day or the day after and tipped the cashier to scoop from the top of the bin to get the new stuff.

The other day they informed me that all of the coffee in the bin was from the previous week and the fresh roasted beans were in the back. I mentioned that I had been getting them from the top of the bin with the understanding that those were fresh and she said she only did it to placate me (and maybe for the tip I guess). I asked if I could buy beans from the back and she said no.

I will not be going there ever again!

Fortunately there is another establishment that roasts to order. The problem is they are mainly mail order and I just happen to live near them. Their hours are not convenient but I will make the time to get over there once a month and then freeze the beans.

Your post would be of more value if you'd name the cafe in question. So local HB'ers would know in which window to throw the molotov cocktail where _not_ to buy beans.

It's called Bean Hollow, located in Ellicott City, MD.

Many roasts require a week to settle down. So as long as the beans "in the bin" aren't exposed to light and air, there may be no problem with freshness.

P.S. One should always act with caution and due diligence when taking action that could threaten another person's livelihood, right?

I doubt if I am threatening another's livelihood, but in principle I understand what you are saying.

However, it did not seem to me that the establishment understood my concern for freshness, and even deliberately misled me. If they had said, "oh, yes, freshness is very important. So important, in fact, that we won't sell beans until they have settled," I would have most likely been even more eager to give them my business. Instead it was more like, "naaah, these beans are all the same." Two weeks later, "actually, we never sold the fresh roasted ones to you anyway, even though we told you we were."

One barista in particular tamped the grounds my slamming the heel of her hand against the tamper.

I guess the whole free market principle is that if the quality is not to my liking I will take my business elsewhere, and if other like minded people inquire I will inform them for their own information and decision making.

from what I read I understand you bought beans from these guys more than once. aside from ultra freshness issue, If you were not pleased with what you got you wouldn't go there for a second or third time right?

So I suppose the problem is --> you're lied and you feel cheated. If I were in your place I'd feel exactly same, on the other hand if I'm really pleased with the taste then I'd keep buying BUT at the same time I'd either write a letter or talk to cafe manager and ask them to be more careful etc. Besides aren't you curious why they aren't selling freshly roasted ones? Who knows maybe it's cashier's doing and cafe owner or manager have no idea what's going on at all.. once I asked to a cashier if they're selling the vacuum pot they put on display, first she didn't understand what I'm talking about, so I had to show her and she said "ah the vase? no we don't, it's for decoration, we put rose in it but the last one dried that's why it's empty." eh.. I was with a friend when that happened, 2 of us got out and she asked me "did it really happened?"

I'd say, if the shop is convenient to you, and you can buy in smaller quantities, there's no reason to stop giving them your custom merely because their policy is to sell the beans in the bin first -- as long as those beans are only a few days old and protected from light and air, and their roasts yield good coffee. They have to guard against wastage. Of course, if you want to punish them for allowing you to think the beans at the top of the bin were roasted the day before, that's your prerogative.

BTW, tamping isn't all it's cracked up to be. The casual tamp you describe could just as readily be the mark of someone who knows what they're doing as the mark of someone who doesn't.

As suggested above, if the beans are to your liking, keep buying in small quantities till you find a better source

For a long time a shop such as you describe was the only local ( 30 miles) source of roasted beans. The owner was the one who did not give anyone the fresh beans, his wife would. He would do a switch from the back room that actually cost him more in time and effort than if he had been honest! I found out when I found him pulling a roast from his machine and asked for those beans. The PBTC was asked for those beans and he went to the owner and then to the back room and came out with COLD beans. I told the owner what I had requested which was to no avail. The bag of roast remained. I now frequent and send persons to a shop that normally roasts once a week and runs out of roasted beans after 5 or 6 days and is a very good roaster. Closer too! There, you never know what his three SO roasts of the next week will be but any of them are worth buying. Now there are other small roasters in town but none as consistent in quality or service.

PS I found later that the owner of the poor shop hated coffee. He and his partner were wine connoisseurs who sold coffee just to get folks into his high end, very high priced, cigar and wine shop.
Cheers
-Richard

fizguy wrote:I will not be going there ever again!

If we could pause a moment from genuflecting before the Freshness God, could you describe how these beans performed in the cup and how they disappointed you? Since you've said nothing about the brewing quality and were apparently a frequent customer, it looks like you were enjoying their beans quite a bit until the moment you were told the roasting date.

I have a second option that will roast and sell the same day I request, then I can let the beans settle for as long as I want...a day, two days, a month. It is a little less convenient but they tell me when they are roasted and as far as I know have never lied to me. The price is the same.

In my limited experience on HB, most people seem concerned with making the best espresso they can. The smallest detail of the process is scrutinized from start to finish. Thousands of dollars are spent upgrading equipment. I am surprised that I am seemingly being criticized for wanting to do business with an establishment that takes honesty and freshness as seriously as I do.

I wonder sometimes if folks here just like to be contrary!

my 2c

fizguy wrote:In my limited experience on HB, most people seem concerned with making the best espresso they can.

Exactly. You said nothing about the espresso. It was all about "freshness."

Good point Marshall,
To answer from my viewpoint and taste. Once I had tasted really good roasts I found those from the first place, even when fresh, were crap! I do not make espresso more than a couple times a day and want the freshest so as to last till done with the order. Now, during the non-frozen times of the year, I usually roast my own in small batches. During the winter season I purchase.

As always suggested, try to find a very good coffee house within a hundred miles and re-calibrate your taste buds from time to time. Makes a nice day trip too.

-Richard

Marshall wrote:If we could pause a moment from genuflecting before the Freshness God, could you describe how these beans performed in the cup and how they disappointed you? Since you've said nothing about the brewing quality and were apparently a frequent customer, it looks like you were enjoying their beans quite a bit until the moment you were told the roasting date.

Marshall wrote:Exactly. You said nothing about the espresso. It was all about "freshness."

Well, thank you for exposing my hypocrisy! How silly of me to be concerned with that. Do you also sell using a bait and switch approach and are defending your collective turf?

I'm looking at your profile fizguy, and I'm wondering what kind of grinder you use. Or do you have the beans ground for you? If that is the case , then this whole freshness deal is all for naught.

Good question. I use a rocky. I always chuckle when I ask for a pound of whole bean espresso blend and they ask if I would like it ground.

Well, the silver lining to this or "the devil you know..." is: when the odd time occurs (and I've had my share) where you've got a drop out in your supply there will be someplace to grab a small amount of ready "rested beans" to get you through until your delivery arrives or they've finally rested enough. Man, that's some ugly grammar - you'd think English was my second language!

Although you don't mention it, I assume you like the taste of the espresso at the new roaster, so its win/win. It took me a long time to find a blend I could live with day in and day out, not counting the occasional excursions I still take to taste new roasters and blends. That's the joy, there are a lot of places to try, unless the shipping cost is a negative to you - especially if you want it to de-gass under your supervision. Unfortunately, we can't all live near great roasters, I'm very lucky to have more than a few in my immediate area. But still, I wish Counter Culture would expand out west, hint, hint, nod, nod, wink, wink.

I don't read the other postings so much as criticism as attempts to give you another point of view once you take out the dishonesty or misinformation from the equation. Now that you know the lay of the land, use it to your own benefit.

Lastly, as some of the gurus here keep reminding us "its all about the taste". Even with the same blend you'll see how the taste changes over the time you have it and, dare I say from crop to crop, because I've read of enough roasters who really try to mitigate that flavor change. In your "go to" blend (withstanding all other variables) do you have a favorite day or bracket of days?

fizguy wrote:Well, thank you for exposing my hypocrisy! How silly of me to be concerned with that. Do you also sell using a bait and switch approach and are defending your collective turf?

Sorry, if I sounded harsh. There is sometimes a tendency on-line to almost fetishize freshness. There are home roasters who swear that coffee is "undrinkable" after three days, and others that claim freshness is the most important factor in coffee quality.

When the specialty coffee movement started, the original roasters were fighting against commercial standards that promoted months' and even year-old coffee as saleable. I don't think any of them contemplated consumers having a fit over coffee being a few days post-roast. In fact there is great disagreement within the industry as to the "ideal" (if there is such a thing) dates to enjoy a roast. Certainly the weight of the evidence is that it varies with different blends and roasts. Two of my favorite blends definitely perform better a week after roast. My most frequent source sells coffee up to four days post roast.

Managing inventory is a life or death issue for retailers. If they only sold the freshest of the fresh, the 2 or 3 day old coffee would constantly be pushed to the back of the shelf or bottom of the bin until it became 2-week old coffee and have to be thrown out. So, they settle on one routine or another for moving inventory and minimizing waste.

I don't know what your "understanding" was based on and whether it was just your assumption that the serving bin always held the most recent roast. But, I would urge you to reconsider whether or not a great injustice was done to you.

Sorry, if I sounded harsh

No problem. I flew off the handle way too quickly.

fizguy wrote:No problem. I flew off the handle way too quickly.

And after being asked multiple times you still never answered the question.

So - Did the espresso taste good to you before you found out about this issue or not????

It doesn't really matter to me at this point. They didn't take my request seriously and I got the sense (I could be wrong) that they don't take coffee seriously.

In any case, it wasn't bad. Not much crema and extracted pretty fast compared to others at the same grind and tamp. Could I live with it? Of course. Will I go back? Probably not since I do have other options, and the one I am thinking of (Orinoco coffee) has treated me very nicely when I have done business with them.