Italian vs American Espresso

Discuss flavors, brew temperatures, blending, and cupping notes.
Joco
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#1: Post by Joco »

My love affair with espresso started with my journeys in Europe. And since then I've built everything I need to replicate my experience at home... well almost. Over the last few years I learned everything I can, invested in all the right equipment and tried many, many third wave US espresso and yet I have yet to love it as much as I did what I had in Europe.

So my question... is American third wave espresso that different from the espresso in Europe/Italy? Has anyone found a third-wave roaster that does it like the Italians? Or should I purchase the stale Lavazza/Illy/Kimbo?

Thoughts?

Joe

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Chert
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#2: Post by Chert »

You certainly can do well going with the Italian but there are stateside roasters than hearken well to Italian styles: Caffe Umbria (Seattle, I think), Caffe D'Arte, Mr. Espresso (Bay area), Caffe Pacori (Eugene Oregon), and surely others. The problem might be that without that bit of robusta to freshen the staleness the US roasters can't hold up to storage. So you may find the Italian roasters please you more.
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dominico
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#3: Post by dominico »

To add to the US "Italian Style" roasters you could also try Espresso Vivace Dolce, and Paradise Espresso Classico.

I would also add that "ambiance" and nostalgia could have a marked effect on taste perception as well. I really enjoy "riding the third wave" and playing around with different ways to pull SOs and getting shots that taste like Merlot with Marshmallows and whatnot, but on those days when I find myself really missing Italy and my Italian family and friends, on those days NOTHING would taste better than a traditional, balanced, low acidity Italian espresso; where I can close my eyes and be transported back to a coffee shop in Genova across the street from my friends' flat where I hear people arguing about whether to vote Movemento 5 Stelle, the click clack of some kids playing foosball on a Garlando glass top table, and some old guys in the corner getting emotional about their Cirulla hand (The Ligurian version of the Scopa card game) while some crumbs from an onion focaccia on the small round table get swept off and and spread out across the red and black checkered floor.

"Zucchero?" asks my friend offering me a sugar packet while she pours one into her own coffee.

"No grazie" I reply, preferring to taste all of the complex flavors of the coffee and feel them meld into one finely orchestrated dance on my tongue.

"Va bene, ma un po' di dolce non ti fa male, sai.." she says with a smile.

We finish our coffees, thank the barista who in these last two minutes has already served another 8 espressos, and then head out the door to help our friends mind their motobikers shop down the street.

As we walk down the street under the August sun I observe the eclectic mishmash of medieval stone buildings next to colorful post-renaissance buildings, next to the all-glass eccentric architecture of the Italian economic boom of the 60's. Three separate styles that blend into one complex but beautiful experience that is distinctive of Genova, like the complex but wonderful vevlety soft baking chocolate taste of the Italian espresso still sitting on my tongue, the satisfied feeling of warmth and wellbeing in my stomach, and the allegria that leaves me looking forward to enjoying the rest of my day has to bring.
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mathof
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Joined: 13 years ago

#4: Post by mathof »

I've recently returned from two weeks in Venice, where I drank a lot of coffee in bars and restaurants. I think the biggest difference from 3rd wave coffee in the UK is that Italians use just 7g of beans in their single espressos and cappuccinos. The resulting brew ratio is always lower than 50%.

When I returned home - admittedly with 500g of a freshly roasted arabica espresso blend (Caffè Remér, from Torrefazione Cannaregio in Venice - available online), I found that I much preferred that formula to the 14g doubles I had been making myself before I left. And the taste was much more "Italiano".

Matt

Joco (original poster)
Posts: 168
Joined: 11 years ago

#5: Post by Joco (original poster) »

dominico wrote:To add to the US "Italian Style" roasters you could also try Espresso Vivace Dolce, and Paradise Espresso Classico.

I would also add that "ambiance" and nostalgia could have a marked effect on taste perception as well. I really enjoy "riding the third wave" and playing around with different ways to pull SOs and getting shots that taste like Merlot with Marshmallows and whatnot, but on those days when I find myself really missing Italy and my Italian family and friends, on those days NOTHING would taste better than a traditional, balanced, low acidity Italian espresso; where I can close my eyes and be transported back to a coffee shop in Genova across the street from my friends' flat where I hear people arguing about whether to vote Movemento 5 Stelle, the click clack of some kids playing foosball on a Garlando glass top table, and some old guys in the corner getting emotional about their Cirulla hand (The Ligurian version of the Scopa card game) while some crumbs from an onion focaccia on the small round table get swept off and and spread out across the red and black checkered floor.

"Zucchero?" asks my friend offering me a sugar packet while she pours one into her own coffee.

"No grazie" I reply, preferring to taste all of the complex flavors of the coffee and feel them meld into one finely orchestrated dance on my tongue.

"Va bene, ma un po' di dolce non ti fa male, sai.." she says with a smile.

We finish our coffees, thank the barista who in these last two minutes has already served another 8 espressos, and then head out the door to help our friends mind their motobikers shop down the street.

As we walk down the street under the August sun I observe the eclectic mishmash of medieval stone buildings next to colorful post-renaissance buildings, next to the all-glass eccentric architecture of the Italian economic boom of the 60's. Three separate styles that blend into one complex but beautiful experience that is distinctive of Genova, like the complex but wonderful vevlety soft baking chocolate taste of the Italian espresso still sitting on my tongue, the satisfied feeling of warmth and wellbeing in my stomach, and the allegria that leaves me looking forward to enjoying the rest of my day has to bring.

Ok now I want to go it Italy....

Bodka Coffee
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#6: Post by Bodka Coffee »

Yeah... Love that post.

Joco (original poster)
Posts: 168
Joined: 11 years ago

#7: Post by Joco (original poster) »

Thanks for the responses... sounds like I should try some Italian style roasters based in the US.

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cmin
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#8: Post by cmin »

dominico wrote:To add to the US "Italian Style" roasters you could also try Espresso Vivace Dolce, and Paradise Espresso Classico.
Almost ordered some Classico but wasn't sure how it would taste. I like their Nuevo.

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peacecup
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#9: Post by peacecup »

Certainly Caffe Umbria is in the Italian tradition - they have a family history of roasting both in Italy and the US.

I personally love the Italian roasting and blending styles.
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FotonDrv
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#10: Post by FotonDrv »

Chert wrote:You certainly can do well going with the Italian but there are stateside roasters than hearken well to Italian styles: Caffe Umbria (Seattle, I think), Caffe D'Arte, Mr. Espresso (Bay area), Caffe Pacori (Eugene Oregon), and surely others. The problem might be that without that bit of robusta to freshen the staleness the US roasters can't hold up to storage. So you may find the Italian roasters please you more.
I like a Caffe'D'Arte, off the top of my head I can't remember which roast but Firenze" rings a bell. I did however have to pay close attention to foreign objects in the beans (rocks).

I also use Lavazza Top Class for another roasted bean.

I usually roast my own beans and my roasting is crap, but convenient :D
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