another_jim wrote:Johnny, in case the gist of this thread hasn't quite sunk in, here's what you should write:

I apologize.

+1

I stopped the Chicago Loop store by on Monday Jan 4th, to pick up coffee, and a Vario grinder for my new machine. All of the coffee on the shelves was roasted on Jan 4th. (same day). It doesn't get a whole lot fresher than that.

I also had the best cup of espresso, I have ever had, while I was waiting to fetch the grinder from storage.

kudos to Intelligentsia.

Doug Zell wrote:

I will make this public comment at the risk of being (a little) controversial. I realize that there are other roasters offering lower rates on shipping than we do, but would contend in many cases they are subsidizing the shipping and may or may not know if they are actually making a profit on that particular transaction. Sadly in Specialty Coffee, filled with many dreamy, idealistic, liberal arts types (I am one too, with a degree in History from the University of Wisconsin), there are a lot of roasters and operators who do not run their businesses very well. They charge too little at their coffeebars or for their roasted coffee, or for their shipping. They set their prices not based on extensive (or sometimes any) research, but merely copy what the other bad business operators are doing. This can and does lead to devastating results. I have learned this the hard way (too many times over) and do not wish to repeat former mistakes.

Doug Zell

Hi Doug,

Normally, I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole, but I've been thinking about this post since I originally read it in January. Also, we were named in the original post about companies with cheaper shipping than Intelligentsia. After pondering it at length (7 months!) i can't say that I don't disagree with you.

You state that other roasters subsidize shipping in order to entice customers. You also state that these businesses are not savvy enough to recognize that they are losing money on the transaction because they are "dreamy, idealistic, liberal types...who do not run their businesses very well".

Once again, I can't say that I don't disagree with you...in spades. Today, I did a little research. I went to your site and set up an order for 2# of BC to ship to Greensboro NC (thanks Nik). I did the same on our site for Redline Espresso (our site reads the exact price from Fedex, our preferred shipper). Shipping from Intelly came in at $9.33 (UPS). Shipping from Metropolis came in at $5.13 (FEDEX).

Riddle me this - how is it possible that 2 dreamy liberal arts types (I have a Philosophy BA from UW-Madison and my dad PhD'd in Linguistics at UM-Ann Arbor), running a company 10% the size of Intelligentsia, possibly negotiate a shipping price 54% of that of Intelligentsia's ? Are you bundling handling, and if so, is it unethical if it is not indicated? Is $4 a fair handling fee? Up to you, I guess.

One more thing, even if a roaster DOES subsidize shipping, is it not their prerogative to entice new business - to get fresh palates and potential happy customers for life that may see shipping cost as a major impediment to trying new coffees? Does that make them bad at business, or does it make you judgmental - as in, the Intelligentsia model is the only truth?

Just a different perspective on the same question.


Tony Dreyfuss

Possible Tread Drift.

sutono wrote:Hi Doug . . .

. . . I went to your site and set up an order for 2# of BC to ship to Greensboro NC (thanks Nik). I did the same on our site for Redline Espresso (our site reads the exact price from Fedex, our preferred shipper). Shipping from Intelly came in at $9.33 (UPS). Shipping from Metropolis came in at $5.13 (FEDEX).

Riddle me this - how is it possible that 2 dreamy liberal arts types (I have a Philosophy BA from UW-Madison and my dad PhD'd in Linguistics at UM-Ann Arbor), running a company 10% the size of Intelligentsia, possibly negotiate a shipping price 54% of that of Intelligentsia's ? Are you bundling handling, and if so, is it unethical if it is not indicated? Is $4 a fair handling fee? Up to you, I guess.

Dear Mr. Zell, Mr. Dreyfuss, and any other commercial roasters:

I used to work for one California winery that -- when it came to shipping wines to customers -- charged exactly what UPS Ground charged us. Since we had to pack the wines in UPS "transit-tested" styrofoam, we charged our cost on those, too, but rounded up to the nearest dollar. We made our profit on charging the "regular" retail price for the wine (think MSRP), which was certainly a higher percentage gross profit for the winery than we would get selling the wine at wholesale to a retail store or restaurant.

I also used to work for a California winery that charged more for "shipping and handling" (i.e.: this was another, "secret" profit center) than our actual costs. This winery, too, charged full retail price for the wines, which were in the same general price range as the first winery.

Guess which winery shipped more wine?

I enjoy Intelligentsia's coffee when I visit Los Angeles or Chicago. But I enjoy Metropolis in my home.

In the FWIW Dept.:

I live in Berkeley, California. My office is in Hayward, CA.

A two-pound order from Intelligentsia is now shipped from the LA roasting facility. According to the Intelligentsia website, shipping will cost $9.33 and "Only UPS shipping is available to street addresses in the United States." Now, I know that UPS charges less to ship to a business address than to a home address, but Intelligentsia charges me the same price. $9.33. For a two-pound order, Metropolis is indeed $5.13.

This is not to say Intelligentsia is wrong, bad, or whatever. After all, anyone can run their business the way they see fit. It is their's, after all.

Indeed, things are even more confusing at Vivace -- all by itself! A two-pound order via USPS Priority Mail from Vivace is $9.00, BUT if you choose their flat-rate option, they charge $10.70! (Trying to figure this one out is starting to give me a migraine!) And just to add to the confusion, you can't get their decaf on the flat-rate option!


Then again, there are roasters like Caffè Fresco in Pennsylvania: I can get 2 one-pound bags of coffee, or 3 12-ounce bags, shipped to me utilizing USPS flat-rate Priority Mail shipping for only $5.00.

This doesn't even take into account third-party companies like ROASTe and GoCoffeeCo. According to ROASTe's website, and excluding any special offers, ROASTe offers "Free Shipping over $25" and "Ground shipping $3.75 per vendor." According to the GoCoffeeGo website (and they spell out their shipping policies here) shipping is cheaper to business addresses than to homes, but depending upon the volume ordered -- again, per vendor -- shipping can be free!

Part of the problem stems from the availability of information. It is easier for consumers to get information as to, in this case, shipping rates and the like. And therefore, easier for the consumer to feel ripped off . . .

Respectfully,
Jason Brandt Lewis

BTW, Priority Mail is often faster than either UPS or FedEx Ground.

Hey Jason,

Totally second you on the USPS - there are only 2 problems with USPS from our side:

1) We are in Chicago, which has THE WORST post offices in the nation. When Priority Mail works, it is great - it'll get you a pound in Berkeley in 2 days. When it fails, it fails miserably, and you might wait upwards of 2 weeks for your coffee

2) It is not trackable - web customers frequently ask about their shipments, and if we don't have an answer, we look bad and the customer is frustrated.

That said, we do offer USPS Priority mail as an option because it usually works and is totally affordable (like, to California).

Thanks,

Tony

zin1953 wrote:Indeed, things are even more confusing at Vivace -- all by itself! A two-pound order via USPS Priority Mail from Vivace is $9.00, BUT if you choose their flat-rate option, they charge $10.70! (Trying to figure this one out is starting to give me a migraine!) And just to add to the confusion, you can't get their decaf on the flat-rate option!

$10.70 is the cost of a Priority Mail Medium Flat Rate box which will easily hold 5 or more lbs of coffee. Unfortunately Vivace is only allowing you to order 3lbs max with that option which makes no sense. Even though ROASTe charges more per lb for Vivace's coffees it still costs less to order through them if you order two lbs or more & get the free shipping.

I don't understand why quibble or complain over $3-$6 difference in shipping when spending over $3000 for machines and grinders...

The point is, it is not how much shipping is, but what is your total cost of coffee and whether that total cost is worth it to you in terms of taste. The value you get for your money.

If it is worth it, you keep on ordering. If it is not, you order elsewhere. Market will regulate itself quite nicely this way.

Shipping is profit center for many organizations. Shipping is loss center but used to entice purchase for many organizations. Some pass direct cost to customers. No right or wrong... Depends how you structure your business. And how do you arrive at true cost of shipping? Your coffee does not jump into the boxes on its own and tapes the box

For roasters, concentrate on creating superb coffee, and brew it in your stores superbly since your stores are direct marketing vehicles for you. I had one of the worst espressos (three of them actually) in Metropolis and if I had not tried that coffee at home, but was introduced to it in store, I would've never bought it whether it had free shipping or not...

JohnB. wrote:$10.70 is the cost of a Priority Mail Medium Flat Rate box which will easily hold 5 or more lbs of coffee. Unfortunately Vivace is only allowing you to order 3lbs max with that option which makes no sense. Even though ROASTe charges more per lb for Vivace's coffees it still costs less to order through them if you order two lbs or more & get the free shipping.

Agreed, John. MY problem is that Vivace's Decaf is not available through ROASTe, nor does it qualify for flat-rate shipping directly from Vivace. But you can certainly understand my puzzlement over Vivace's shipping policies . . .

Cheers,
Jason

tekomino wrote:I don't understand why quibble or complain over $3-$6 difference in shipping when spending over $3000 for machines and grinders...

Dennis? Not everyone here has spent $3,000+ on machines and grinders; some people spend $300, or even less.

tekomino wrote:The point is, it is not how much shipping is, but what is your total cost of coffee and whether that total cost is worth it to you in terms of taste. The value you get for your money. If it is worth it, you keep on ordering. If it is not, you order elsewhere. Market will regulate itself quite nicely this way.

No, Dennis, the point is how much the shipping is. The question here is not whether you coffee "nets out" to 53.8¢ per 14g double (61.7¢ per 16g double), versus 46.3¢ (or 52.9¢). The question is not on a micro level -- a few pennies here, a few pennies there. A difference in shipping of $4 per shipment can add up quickly, and easily exceed $100 per year. That's $100 that can be put to good use elsewhere -- I've got two teenage girls in high school; trust me, $100 is $100! Besides, Dennis, if the costs of shipping were of no consequence to the posters here (and on CG), why would there be so many threads about shipping, about ordering 5+ pounds at a time, about the best way to store/freeze beans in order to take advantage of lower prices when ordering in quantity, etc., etc.

tekomino wrote:Shipping is profit center for many organizations. Shipping is loss center but used to entice purchase for many organizations. Some pass direct cost to customers. No right or wrong... Depends how you structure your business. And how do you arrive at true cost of shipping? Your coffee does not jump into the boxes on its own and tapes the box.

No one here has said anything about right or wrong, have they? Individual businesses, companies, and corporations have the right to conduct their business in any way they want to, as long as it is legal to do so, and no one here has claimed otherwise. Indeed, I believe I have already said just that . . .

zin1953 wrote:After all, anyone can run their business the way they see fit. It is their's, after all.

The point here, Dennis, is trying -- as a consumer -- to understand the policy, to make a wise and informed decision, and when the policy varies so widely from one vendor to another, it can be confusing, frustrating, and annoying. Further, Dennis, just as businesses have the right to conduct their business in the way they see fit, we as consumers have the right to ask questions of that business.

Speaking personally, we live at a time when there are dozens of small, high-quality roasters from which we can order beans, and the internet means that the we are not necessarily limited to those roasters within driving difference. If one finds, for example, Black Cat to be significantly better than Redline, it may be worthwhile to that individual to spend an extra $4+ per two-pound shipment. If one enjoys both coffees equally, perhaps the extra $4+ is not worth it -- at least not all the time. (Obviously if one prefers Redline, well, it's not that much of an issue then, is it?)

But this is NOT an "Intelligentsia v. Metropolis" issue. (If it were, I'd honestly suggest that Mssrs. Zell and Dreyfuss "duke it out" in private.) Rather, the issue of shipping costs / policies / methods is something that affects all of us as consumers, as "home baristas."

I admit it: when trying a new roaster -- one that I have never tried before and do not know whether I will like their beans -- I try to (potentially) "waste" as little money as possible; ergo, I hope that shipping will not a significant expense. And when ordering coffee from roasters I know I already enjoy? Well, sometimes I order directly and sometimes I order through ROASTe/GoCoffeeGo. Why? Because it's less expensive to order one way from some vendors; the other way from other vendors . . . .

Cheers,
Jason

sutono wrote:Hey Jason . . . We are in Chicago, which has THE WORST post offices in the nation. When Priority Mail works, it is great - it'll get you a pound in Berkeley in 2 days. When it fails, it fails miserably, and you might wait upwards of 2 weeks for your coffee.

Being a Chicago native, I understand completely. I had a great-uncle who was the presiding judge for Cook County when the "original" Mayor Daley was in office -- he railed against the Post Office all the time and, IIRC, ordered the Postmaster into his court to explain why the service in Chicago was so bad...

Cheers,
Jason