I don't begrudge what I pay my roaster, Reiss of Londinium Espresso.

He puts an immense amount of time and experimentation into getting a roast right.

He invests equal time in monitoring his roast beans over time to make sure they still produce the results he wants as any number of variables change, including the seasons.

He has also put a vast amount of time and money into acquiring the best equipment and developing a number of proprietary mods to ensure consistency.

And that, I believe is the key to much of this.

I don't roast for a hobby. Not because I don't believe I'm up to it (modesty is not a virtue I possess), but because I already have more hobbies than I have brain cells and hours in the day to keep track of.

In addition, and more importantly, although I'm sure I could rig things up to hit the occasional amazing roast (and gain great pleasure from it), I would also be very much less than consistent at it (which would bring me a great deal of grumpiness, research, experimentation, lost sleep etc etc.). At the same time, I would probably be more tolerant of my own failings in consistency than I would of a pro roaster.

Even among the pro roasters in the UK, there are massive variations not simply in bean preferences and roasting style, but in consistency. I've stopped using roasters who only get the occasional great because of it. And getting a consistently great roast is something I am prepared to pay for, happily, having come to understand how much work goes into it.

Considering the amount we are prepared to pay for great machines, great grinders and so on (not to mention water filters, PIDs and so on) to get consistency, I can't see why we should begrudge paying for great coffee and a great relationship with a great roaster..... who is maybe also trying to ensure that the farmers who grow and process our beans get paid a decent sum for it, too.....

Cheers

Mike

Coffee people like sour coffees - consumers with educated palates do not.

I'd bank on this being accurate. I have customers who buy from Intelly and Barefoot say they prefer my coffee. Great. It doesn't mean I'm a better roaster, it just means they, specifically, like my style, or the flavor profile my (g*dd*am f876ing) BBQ roaster brings out. Given the difficulty of doing pre-second crack roasts (no visual on the beans, etc), I rarely do anything but a light medium to medium roast. Honestly, sometimes I'll have an Intelly shot, and part of me says 'good for you, go get em tiger!', because it's obviously their interpretation of the best in that bean; but the other side of my brain is saying 'you guys are nuts, out of 30 people in the store, I bet I'm the only one who really appreciates/gets/likes it'. I guess that's the beauty of having the Black Cat 'house espresso', to please the majority, and the oddball SO cup of madness and beauty they sometimes muster up.

JonR10 wrote: So while I heartily agree that people need to understand that it's not for everyone and most home roasters will have a steep curve to be able to produce coffee on the quality level of a Paradise or PT's (if at all, ever)...I heartily disagree with the idea that "if you can't match Klatch then why bother"

I completely agree with this. I love the hobby of home roasting. It is an incredible learning experience and, for me, a heck of a lot of fun. In terms of comparisons to the pros, there are many levels to that. My biggest issue -- I am sure shared by many other home roasters who haven't really, really fine tuned their work -- is being consistent. I have produced some very nice roasts that I would put up against many professional roasts. I have produced many more average to terrible roasts. Trying to control so many variables in the home environment is challenging.

However, one thing I have noticed is that I will often find something interesting in a blend that I really enjoy, usually by accident. I recall roasting a blend that I ordered both green and roasted where the stars aligned and I liked my roast better. Usually because there was some other variable that I encountered at home that brought something else out in a particular bean or in the blend. To me, that experience was worth the five roasts before where I scratched my head and asked what I did wrong those times.

When I just need a great roast (usually after some frustration at home) I have no issues logging on to Counter Culture or Gimme or Intelly or.... and placing an order knowing I am going to enjoy some great coffee. I would never put myself in their league, but I gain more satisfaction from the 10-20% of home roasts I am able to get right. I hope that percentage will increase as I learn more and more.

As for costs, I have certainly saved money by home roasting. I only have about $200 invested in equipment and I save about $10 a week on coffee. I also never run out of fresh coffee, in rural Florida...which is priceless!

poison wrote:. . . sometimes I'll have an Intelly shot, and part of me says 'good for you, go get em tiger!', because it's obviously their interpretation of the best in that bean; but the other side of my brain is saying 'you guys are nuts, out of 30 people in the store, I bet I'm the only one who really appreciates/gets/likes it'.

Nate, what makes you say that? Do you think people are lining up out the door because it's trendy, as opposed to really liking it? What am I missing?

Cheers,
Jason

malachi wrote:If you are talking about the home vs pro debate - as noted above this would not be designed to address that and it's something that I don't think is worth debating. I think everyone in the center of the bell curve agrees on that debate (a somewhat skilled home roaster is very likely to be able to sometimes produce coffee better than the "supermarket" roasters produce; a skilled home roaster is very likely to be able to consistently produce coffee better than these "supermarket" roasters and is likely to be able to periodically produce coffee better than all but the top 1 or 2 percent of professional roasters; very few home roasters are likely to be able to produce that is consistently on par with what those top pro roasters produce).

Fair enough. I was responding to your original post, which in retrospection I misread. I think I'm on the same page with you, and agree with what you've said above.

zin1953 wrote:Nate, what makes you say that? Do you think people are lining up out the door because it's trendy, as opposed to really liking it? What am I missing?

Cheers,
Jason

I was speaking about their SO offerings, mostly, which tend toward very edgy, IMO. But that's why they offer the more mellow Black Cat as the standard.

I go to the one in Venice, mostly, and it's nowhere near as busy as it was initially when they opened. I think a lot of it is the trendiness, but a large part of that is their skillful design and marketing, they nailed both neighborhoods and target clientele. And obviously ANYTHING they serve is about 1000 times better than anything for miles around. Kudo's to Intelligentsia; they get me in there.

I think it'd be really tough to survive on the wild SO shots that many here like. The Intelly shot I posted about here a week or so ago? OMG, one of the best, ever. But your average coffee guy? I just don't think they'd get it. Even me; I LOVED that shot, but would I want to drink it every day?

I pulled a shot of Kona for a friend yesterday. He took a sip, his eyes got wide, and he said 'wow, curry!'. I told him I'd make him another if he didn't like it, he said he was enjoying it a lot. He became pretty enthused about it, so I asked if he wanted another, and he said 'no'. Similarly, a cup of that same Ethiopia Yrgacheffe served as Clover tastes like tea, citrus, hibiscus maybe, I forget. Awesome. But I wouldn't pay $6 for it again. Way too tea-like.

I'd like to know what the ratio of BC vs SO sales is in the Intelly stores. I believe the C>FC roasts appeal to the widest range of people. Maybe I'm wrong.

Danger! Danger! Warning, Will Robinson -- Thread Drift Approaching . . .

Nate, as someone who grew up on the west side of LA, believe me I know all too well one can never discount the "trendiness" factor . . . and this is from someone who escaped in 1976! (Though I confess to returning often, whether I need to or not.)

I've only been to the Venice location 3-4 times, approximately the same number of times I've been to Silver Lake. And I've noticed that -- the two most recent times -- there was no "line out the door," though the place was reasonably full. I think part of that is still the "new" setup -- for people used to placing an order and standing aside until they call your name, it may feel weird to just stand in line without ordering a drink. (I know that, when they first opened and people were trying to explain the concept, it made no sense whatsoever to me until my first visit.) But it's LA -- you're damned if you do; damned if you don't: some people will be attracted to the "trendy," while others are put off by it; there's the snob, the reverse snob, the "who cares? it's great coffee!" and the "no one goes there anymore, it's too crowded" scenario . . .

I haven't been to the café up the street that carried Blue Bottle, nor to the café down the block on the corner. But when I'm on the West Side, I do go to Intelligentsia in Venice . . . and I've yet to be disappointed -- in either BC or the various SO's. Then again, I don't use Intelly at home, so I enjoy it while I'm there . . .

Cheers,
Jason